I think some of the "Male Oppression" cries are overdone. However, they do come across as clueless about the communities they're asking to provide them with valuable content... and while that's not so much a "male" thing as a "dominant" thing (I will decide what happens; you will make it so), in this culture, they're pretty closely tied, especially in business--and a business that wants to work closely with skilled workers who are, by vast majority, women, should be sharply aware of that.
In short: it's not "male oppressors;" it's "clueless businessmen, acting just like we expect males in business to act." Not that females in business can't be clueless... but they usually aren't, not like this--and not just because there's less of them.
It's not a straightforward, easy gender issue, but it does tie to gender politics.
I guess I'm just really jarred at the "they are male" being used as an argument against them. The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy" which, really, is just as sexist as, and no better than a man going "I can pay you less because you are a woman".
I don't want to deny that there is gender involved (because hey, it's part of society, most people don't even realize they are taking gender roles for granted), but I would really, really, appreciate it not being an argument against them in our response.
The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy"
How about "You are mean because in our culture men are socialized to think it's okay for men to treat women badly; but it's not okay, so please think about what you're doing and stop"?
Please, do go ahead and tell them clearly that their attitude shows a clear lack of reflection, but I just wanted to point out that it works both ways.
There are men out there who feel greatly inadequate because there are currents of thought in society that seem to ascribe to men oft demonised traits. We, as women, and even as mothers, have played just as big a role in making men what they are as other men have. We expect little boys to be tough, not to cry, to get upset when upstaged by a girl. By accusing them of misogyny simply because they are men, we don't always make them rethink about gender, but sometimes we just encourage them in the belief that all women think they are evil, and it is expected of them though not appreciated.
That is why this argument tends to annoy me. It sends the message that men are entirely to blame, which is a point of view I do not ascribe to. I am perfectly fine with the message that men need to rethink about gender roles, I just think it doesn't only extend to men, and get annoyed when I see pseudo-feminist arguments that seem to forget this.
I apologise if I seem either stubborn or plain ignorant, having only briefly broached the topic of gender roles in my studies. These are topics where I try to be open minded, but get irritated when I feel important points are being ignored.
And just to make it clear, I am not trying to criticize the feminist argument as a whole, only certain expressions of it that I have come across and have struck me as destructive.
By accusing them of misogyny simply because they are men
I don't believe that's at all what is happening here. The fan fiction community is female-dominated, and a lot of female fans have self-defined it as a primarily female space. And so of course when there's an attempt to monetize fan fiction by a company whose board is all men, it's going to make gender a factor in the ensuing discussions.
I think most of the gendered discussions around this are part of a longer conversation that's been going on via metafandom. Recently a female fan posted an essay called "How fan fiction makes us poor" about how our community might be encouraging women to give creative work away to fandom, rather than developing our skills in more commercial directions.
Following that, there were several posts and threads about whether it's ethical for fans to make money from fan fiction (by "filing off the serial numbers" to sell it as original, or soliciting donations, or putting ads on personal websites, or selling printed books). And the general drift was that commercializing fan fiction would probably damage the community.
But just a few weeks after those discussions died down, here comes FanLib, from outside the community, introducing commercialism into it anyway. Most of those recent discussions about "How fan fiction makes us poor" speculated about whether the gender balance of fic fandom, predominately female, was a factor in the development of fanfic's "gift economy". So in the wake of those conversations, when a male-run company tries to make money off fan fiction, it seems almost like a confirmation of the idea that gender is a factor here... that for some reason women don't exploit the financial potential of their creative work. And clearly fan fiction has financial potential, since FanLib is spending $3 million to try to profit from it.
Sorry if that's more than you wanted to know, but I hope the context might make it more clear why this is has come up so often in the course of talking about FanLib.
It is true that I haven't been lurking on metafandom, so yes, thank you for explaining the context to me. It helps, and I see I have plenty more reading and digesting to do before I can fully appreciate how much there is to understand on the topic.
I just felt the urge to point out that, okay, a minority of comments I've come across have taken the generalization too far to my taste, and I'm not saying any of you in particular made them. I just... I dunno.
Sorry if any of this conversation was upsetting to anyone, and I do thank you all for being so prompt to explain the issues. I'm still very young, and this has given me a lot to think on. Thank you.
The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy" which, really, is just as sexist as, and no better than a man going "I can pay you less because you are a woman".
Not really, because a woman going "you are mean because you are a boy" is, at the very worst, an isolated action, whereas "I can pay you less because you are a woman" ties into a larger social context.
I don't know about the situation in the states (I've only spent three weeks there in my whole life) nor can I fully understand what it was in the world more than 20 years back. You can guess my age from that. *rolls eyes* But I am convinced there are situations where it isn't just an isolated action, and also part of a larger context.
Anyway, never mind, as I've noted above and below, I think I've reached the point where I need to sit back, think, research and question my views.
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life_wo_fanlib2007-05-25 08:15 pm
no subject
In short: it's not "male oppressors;" it's "clueless businessmen, acting just like we expect males in business to act." Not that females in business can't be clueless... but they usually aren't, not like this--and not just because there's less of them.
It's not a straightforward, easy gender issue, but it does tie to gender politics.
no subject
I guess I'm just really jarred at the "they are male" being used as an argument against them. The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy" which, really, is just as sexist as, and no better than a man going "I can pay you less because you are a woman".
I don't want to deny that there is gender involved (because hey, it's part of society, most people don't even realize they are taking gender roles for granted), but I would really, really, appreciate it not being an argument against them in our response.
And very pretty icon by the way. ♥
no subject
How about "You are mean because in our culture men are socialized to think it's okay for men to treat women badly; but it's not okay, so please think about what you're doing and stop"?
no subject
There are men out there who feel greatly inadequate because there are currents of thought in society that seem to ascribe to men oft demonised traits. We, as women, and even as mothers, have played just as big a role in making men what they are as other men have. We expect little boys to be tough, not to cry, to get upset when upstaged by a girl. By accusing them of misogyny simply because they are men, we don't always make them rethink about gender, but sometimes we just encourage them in the belief that all women think they are evil, and it is expected of them though not appreciated.
That is why this argument tends to annoy me. It sends the message that men are entirely to blame, which is a point of view I do not ascribe to.
I am perfectly fine with the message that men need to rethink about gender roles, I just think it doesn't only extend to men, and get annoyed when I see pseudo-feminist arguments that seem to forget this.
I apologise if I seem either stubborn or plain ignorant, having only briefly broached the topic of gender roles in my studies. These are topics where I try to be open minded, but get irritated when I feel important points are being ignored.
And just to make it clear, I am not trying to criticize the feminist argument as a whole, only certain expressions of it that I have come across and have struck me as destructive.
no subject
I don't believe that's at all what is happening here. The fan fiction community is female-dominated, and a lot of female fans have self-defined it as a primarily female space. And so of course when there's an attempt to monetize fan fiction by a company whose board is all men, it's going to make gender a factor in the ensuing discussions.
I think most of the gendered discussions around this are part of a longer conversation that's been going on via
Following that, there were several posts and threads about whether it's ethical for fans to make money from fan fiction (by "filing off the serial numbers" to sell it as original, or soliciting donations, or putting ads on personal websites, or selling printed books). And the general drift was that commercializing fan fiction would probably damage the community.
But just a few weeks after those discussions died down, here comes FanLib, from outside the community, introducing commercialism into it anyway. Most of those recent discussions about "How fan fiction makes us poor" speculated about whether the gender balance of fic fandom, predominately female, was a factor in the development of fanfic's "gift economy". So in the wake of those conversations, when a male-run company tries to make money off fan fiction, it seems almost like a confirmation of the idea that gender is a factor here... that for some reason women don't exploit the financial potential of their creative work. And clearly fan fiction has financial potential, since FanLib is spending $3 million to try to profit from it.
Sorry if that's more than you wanted to know, but I hope the context might make it more clear why this is has come up so often in the course of talking about FanLib.
no subject
I just felt the urge to point out that, okay, a minority of comments I've come across have taken the generalization too far to my taste, and I'm not saying any of you in particular made them. I just... I dunno.
Sorry if any of this conversation was upsetting to anyone, and I do thank you all for being so prompt to explain the issues. I'm still very young, and this has given me a lot to think on. Thank you.
no subject
Not really, because a woman going "you are mean because you are a boy" is, at the very worst, an isolated action, whereas "I can pay you less because you are a woman" ties into a larger social context.
no subject
You can guess my age from that. *rolls eyes*But I am convinced there are situations where it isn't just an isolated action, and also part of a larger context.
Anyway, never mind, as I've noted above and below, I think I've reached the point where I need to sit back, think, research and question my views.
Thanks for sharing your points. ^^