Thank you. Unfortunately, nothing has changed. Chris Williams is saying what he's been saying from the beginning: give me your fanfiction so I can use it to attract visitors to my website and sell them stuff. You get nothing. I get everything. Have a nice day!
Yeah, I suppose that bothered me as well, once I really realized just how much money would be being generated from deals being made with Showtime, etc. And all we get is a free tee-shirt and barely any feedback.
Oddly, it was this interview that spurred me to delete the two short stories I uploaded to FanLib. In my particular neck of the fandom world, some fic writers who I respect very much are affliated with FanLib and while I wish them the best of luck, I'm no longer currently comfortable with hosting fic there, if things change in the future, I dunno....we'll see.
Let me tell you, Interwebz, that is some zero traffic kinda place. I think I get more views on my RPG...in the posts where I simply make a laundry list of the posts I owe for the day (Forum based play by post)...and that's not hyperbole. I get more views in ten minutes on FFN than I did in four days on FanLib. There are people there who have fic posted in very popular fandoms like Heroes, and have earned maybe seven views or less in a month. Which seemed odd to me, especially considering how much recent publicity FanLib has received lately.
There's Stargate: Atlantis fic on that site that's been there for weeks without getting any feedback. You can't post about Rodney washing his socks on LJ without getting comments within a day-- a page and a half of them, if you post to a community.
I do think your question is a bit unfair, but I'll answer anyway. I am here because you hold dual citizenship in fandom and academia, you maintain credibility and integrity in both worlds, and you told me I you would get a fair hearing and you would share the unedited results of our interview in its entirety with those interested in the matter. Meanwhile, we've been listening to the many comments we've received from the community and taking action. For proof check out our new TOS and FAQ on our website.
We intend to continue the conversation with the fan fiction community through our developing fan advisory board and, as time permits, by responding to other inquiries, comments and requests that we receive from interested individuals - obviously, regardless of gender.
was really all I needed.
I'm so glad he's disregarding gender. Just watch him. He's disregarding gender so hard drops of blood are bursting from his forehead.
I've been watching most of the fanlib debate without really participating myself, but I do feel the need to point out that I think the gender argument has been terribly overplayed, and has been cause for a rant from one of my favourite fic authors who happens to be a fanboy, despite the fact that he and I both agree on many of the points brought up in all this debate. :p
It is kind of insulting I find to see pseudo-feminist views brought up as supposedly strong arguments, and I am sure most people, when thinking of other people don't think of them as exclusively "O+" or "<-o", but as "readers" "writers" "fans" "employees" "employers" and so on. I don't deny that feminism* has done good for woman in the past, or that there's been no need for it, I'm just saying that I'm kind of irked at seeing people pointing and saying "Male Oppression!" without real cause to.
*I also want to point out that I am well aware that feminist theory is a huge subject, and I hardly know anything about it, still.
And sorry if this comment is out of place, I just really felt the need to point this out. And others might have before me, though I must have missed that.
I'm kind of irked at seeing people pointing and saying "Male Oppression!" without real cause to.
I think the real cause is that a male board of directors and investors are trying to make money off the gift economy created by a fan fic-writing population that is, at last survey, 90+ percent female, while brushing off female fans' inquiries about their business, yet taking the time to answer a male fan at length. I'm sure Henry Jenkins' academic credentials were a huge factor also in his being taken seriously, but it still tastes like sexism to the female fans who were discussing this in grown-up fashion and got a childish rant from the CEO, followed by a brush-off.
I don't think that Fanlib were trying to exploit WOMEN, obviously, they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women. And I don't understood how the fact that fanlib board are made of men change anything, would the situation be different if they have acted like they did but were women? If it's the case, I'm more worried by fandom that by fanlib.^^;
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty... Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"? Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.
I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all. I think their ads appear to be directed at men because they're trying to get more men into fan fiction (untapped market ahoy, especially since advertisers inexplicably prefer to reach a male audience), not because they think there are already lots of men into fan fiction.
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty... Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"? Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
How about I see it both ways? I'm irked that perfectly reasonable fans were ignored even after taking up his offer to "open a dialogue", but an academician was given an interview.
I also believe that gender figured into it, because frankly, the CEO made a ploy for sympathy with female fans that I have a hard time believing he would make if he were talking to men. Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway.
I don't think that Fanlib were trying to exploit WOMEN, obviously, they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.
They knew. Their corporate-sponsored fanfiction contests targeted women. They had a contest for mothers, a contest for girl teens, a contest for romance readers, and a contest for fans of The L Word.
The gender issue is difficult to see. So I shall tell a story to illustrate it.
When I was a teenager, boys who mowed lawns got paid five times as much as girls who watched babies. The girl babysitters got a dollar an hour, the boys got five bucks per lawn [which usually took less than an hour to mow]. Why? Are lawns more important than babies? Most people don't think so.
It happened because culturally [going back centuries] women's labor is marginalized, devalued, and unpaid. This keeps women marginalized, broke, and dependent on others.
Chris Williams and the other members of FanLib want to take the work of female fanfiction writers, give them nothing, and make millions off of it. Is that relevant to gender issues? Hell, yes.
As a teenager, I complained about only getting a buck for babysitting. A boy told me it was fair, though, because he had to pay for gas for the lawnmower, and the lawnmower, too. Except it wasn't his lawnmower. I think that boy grew up to be Chris Williams.
Leaving aside gender issues, however, FanLib is a raw deal for fanfiction writers, regardless of their sex.
"Chris Williams and the other members of FanLib want to take the work of female fanfiction writers, give them nothing, and make millions off of it. Is that relevant to gender issues? Hell, yes." Hell, no. They want to take the work of male fanfiction writer too, so gender don't matter. It's not because guys are the minority in the fandom that it means they are less concerned by women about Fanlib's project.
...
Or should I said that Fanlib's business is an heterosexual issue since most of the fanfiction writer are heterosexual? Hell, have you checked if fanlib's board are homoseual or heterosexual? Does homosexual writers less exploited than heterosexual writers since they're a minority?
"It's not because guys are the minority in the fandom that it means they are less concerned by women about Fanlib's project." less concerned THAN women. Me and my awfull english.-_-;
I don't think we disagree on this. I said it was a raw deal for everyone, regardless of gender.
Take, for example, nurses. [Covers bexone's eyes] For decades they were paid a wage they could barely live on. There were very few male nurses then because men could find higher paying jobs. Women, however, had few job options. They could be nurses, secretaries, teachers, or mommies.
Slowly, nurses gained better benefits because women had more job options, and no longer had to accept back-breaking jobs with low pay. That helped the male nurses, too, but it was incidental. I'm sure the male nurses were just as disgusted with getting paid peanuts as the women were. But that doesn't change the fact that nurses were treated abysmally because they were mostly women.
I don't think it matters, though, if FanLib's board is all men, or all women. Regardless of gender, they are rich people who want to get richer by using our work without compensation.
I agree that the Fanlib venture is a raw deal for fanfic writers, and to go with your story, I think it would be like paying any girl or boy who decided to babysit 5 times less than those who mow the lawn. Granted, the babysitting activity is more often entrusted to girls than boys (and vice-versa regarding lawn mowing), and it is degrading for that activity to be considered "lesser" than the other. It might be because it's an activity associated with girls, or mainly because they think it's an activity that demands less effort. (Having mowed my parents' lawn a couple of times, I know how hard it is to push a heavy lawnmower up a hill.) Now what your story says to me is that parents value their lawns more then babies, and that makes me sad. D:
But okay, yes, I do see your point, and agree that it's terribly unfair in itself. I'd recommend that the babysitters go and state that it's unfair to the payers and demand the same amount pointing out that it's babies' lives they are entrusting dammit. And that's what I hope the fanfic community is doing with Fanlib (& the bunch of IP laws that seem to be happening, ouch?).
How successful we will be, we shall have to see. *crossing fingers*
I don't deny the need to demand an equal treatment, I'm just not happy at people seeing "a bunch of men" and arbitrarily "biting their heads off" because of it. I'd much rather they "bite their heads" regarding what they're doing & their intentions, not what they are. Because seriously, the argument "You're being mean with me because I'm a girl" gets old, and I am a girl. "You're being mean" should suffice.
I think some of the "Male Oppression" cries are overdone. However, they do come across as clueless about the communities they're asking to provide them with valuable content... and while that's not so much a "male" thing as a "dominant" thing (I will decide what happens; you will make it so), in this culture, they're pretty closely tied, especially in business--and a business that wants to work closely with skilled workers who are, by vast majority, women, should be sharply aware of that.
In short: it's not "male oppressors;" it's "clueless businessmen, acting just like we expect males in business to act." Not that females in business can't be clueless... but they usually aren't, not like this--and not just because there's less of them.
It's not a straightforward, easy gender issue, but it does tie to gender politics.
I guess I'm just really jarred at the "they are male" being used as an argument against them. The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy" which, really, is just as sexist as, and no better than a man going "I can pay you less because you are a woman".
I don't want to deny that there is gender involved (because hey, it's part of society, most people don't even realize they are taking gender roles for granted), but I would really, really, appreciate it not being an argument against them in our response.
The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy"
How about "You are mean because in our culture men are socialized to think it's okay for men to treat women badly; but it's not okay, so please think about what you're doing and stop"?
most people, when thinking of other people don't think of them as exclusively "O+" or "<-o",
You're telling me that fanlib's business men are dangerous BECAUSE they're men?
They'more a bunch of incompetents that evil male chauvinist in my opinion.
It's the assumption that all men are inherently evil towards women,
"To be honest, it's not that it's being made, but how it's being made that has bothered me and prompted me to comment above."
But nobody (that I have seen) has said ANY of those things. Nobody's used the word "male chauvinist" but you. Nobody's said men are evil. Nobody's said "I only see people as members of a gender, not as writers."
Nobody has made the arguments that you are happily refuting. Apparently you would rather argue with an imaginary feminist than argue with the real people who are here, saying quite different things.
I personally don't use the term "chauvinist" because for some reason my mind thinks of that as a french nationalist and not a patriarch thing.
I'm fairly sure I have seen comments (probably just a hand full amongst this mountain of debate, heck,) that seemed to reduce the Fanlib venture to the fact that their board was of only men, and seemed to paint it as an evil, but then again, I haven't bookmarked these comments, and I might have interpreted them wrongly or read them wrong.
And I'm not arguing with most of the people here because I'm agreeing with them. I'm just pointing at a problem I think needs pointing at, although after all this debate, I think I might as well just sit back again and do a lot of thinking and research.
I don't know what randomaicoholic (we are two different people *poke*) thinks on this issue now, but I think I've had enough and need to digest it all.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 12:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 01:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 01:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 01:35 am (UTC)Let me tell you, Interwebz, that is some zero traffic kinda place. I think I get more views on my RPG...in the posts where I simply make a laundry list of the posts I owe for the day (Forum based play by post)...and that's not hyperbole. I get more views in ten minutes on FFN than I did in four days on FanLib. There are people there who have fic posted in very popular fandoms like Heroes, and have earned maybe seven views or less in a month. Which seemed odd to me, especially considering how much recent publicity FanLib has received lately.
Ah well.
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Date: 2007-05-26 01:50 am (UTC)Yes! It really is!
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Date: 2007-05-26 02:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 01:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:09 am (UTC)It is kind of insulting I find to see pseudo-feminist views brought up as supposedly strong arguments, and I am sure most people, when thinking of other people don't think of them as exclusively "O+" or "<-o", but as "readers" "writers" "fans" "employees" "employers" and so on.
I don't deny that feminism* has done good for woman in the past, or that there's been no need for it, I'm just saying that I'm kind of irked at seeing people pointing and saying "Male Oppression!" without real cause to.
*I also want to point out that I am well aware that feminist theory is a huge subject, and I hardly know anything about it, still.
And sorry if this comment is out of place, I just really felt the need to point this out.
And others might have before me, though I must have missed that.no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:24 am (UTC)I think the real cause is that a male board of directors and investors are trying to make money off the gift economy created by a fan fic-writing population that is, at last survey, 90+ percent female, while brushing off female fans' inquiries about their business, yet taking the time to answer a male fan at length. I'm sure Henry Jenkins' academic credentials were a huge factor also in his being taken seriously, but it still tastes like sexism to the female fans who were discussing this in grown-up fashion and got a childish rant from the CEO, followed by a brush-off.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:42 am (UTC)And I don't understood how the fact that fanlib board are made of men change anything, would the situation be different if they have acted like they did but were women? If it's the case, I'm more worried by fandom that by fanlib.^^;
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty...
Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"?
Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 03:31 am (UTC)I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all. I think their ads appear to be directed at men because they're trying to get more men into fan fiction (untapped market ahoy, especially since advertisers inexplicably prefer to reach a male audience), not because they think there are already lots of men into fan fiction.
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty...
Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"?
Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
How about I see it both ways? I'm irked that perfectly reasonable fans were ignored even after taking up his offer to "open a dialogue", but an academician was given an interview.
I also believe that gender figured into it, because frankly, the CEO made a ploy for sympathy with female fans that I have a hard time believing he would make if he were talking to men. Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway.
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Date: 2007-05-26 03:43 am (UTC)They knew. Their corporate-sponsored fanfiction contests targeted women. They had a contest for mothers, a contest for girl teens, a contest for romance readers, and a contest for fans of The L Word.
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From:stupidity vs. sexism
From:Re: stupidity vs. sexism
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From:no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:26 am (UTC)When I was a teenager, boys who mowed lawns got paid five times as much as girls who watched babies. The girl babysitters got a dollar an hour, the boys got five bucks per lawn [which usually took less than an hour to mow]. Why? Are lawns more important than babies? Most people don't think so.
It happened because culturally [going back centuries] women's labor is marginalized, devalued, and unpaid. This keeps women marginalized, broke, and dependent on others.
Chris Williams and the other members of FanLib want to take the work of female fanfiction writers, give them nothing, and make millions off of it. Is that relevant to gender issues? Hell, yes.
As a teenager, I complained about only getting a buck for babysitting. A boy told me it was fair, though, because he had to pay for gas for the lawnmower, and the lawnmower, too. Except it wasn't his lawnmower. I think that boy grew up to be Chris Williams.
Leaving aside gender issues, however, FanLib is a raw deal for fanfiction writers, regardless of their sex.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:48 am (UTC)Hell, no.
They want to take the work of male fanfiction writer too, so gender don't matter.
It's not because guys are the minority in the fandom that it means they are less concerned by women about Fanlib's project.
...
Or should I said that Fanlib's business is an heterosexual issue since most of the fanfiction writer are heterosexual? Hell, have you checked if fanlib's board are homoseual or heterosexual? Does homosexual writers less exploited than heterosexual writers since they're a minority?
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:49 am (UTC)less concerned THAN women. Me and my awfull english.-_-;
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:00 am (UTC)Take, for example, nurses. [Covers bexone's eyes] For decades they were paid a wage they could barely live on. There were very few male nurses then because men could find higher paying jobs. Women, however, had few job options. They could be nurses, secretaries, teachers, or mommies.
Slowly, nurses gained better benefits because women had more job options, and no longer had to accept back-breaking jobs with low pay. That helped the male nurses, too, but it was incidental. I'm sure the male nurses were just as disgusted with getting paid peanuts as the women were. But that doesn't change the fact that nurses were treated abysmally because they were mostly women.
I don't think it matters, though, if FanLib's board is all men, or all women. Regardless of gender, they are rich people who want to get richer by using our work without compensation.
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Date: 2007-05-26 03:04 am (UTC)Now what your story says to me is that parents value their lawns more then babies, and that makes me sad. D:
But okay, yes, I do see your point, and agree that it's terribly unfair in itself. I'd recommend that the babysitters go and state that it's unfair to the payers and demand the same amount
pointing out that it's babies' lives they are entrusting dammit. And that's what I hope the fanfic community is doing with Fanlib (& the bunch of IP laws that seem to be happening, ouch?).How successful we will be, we shall have to see. *crossing fingers*
I don't deny the need to demand an equal treatment, I'm just not happy at people seeing "a bunch of men" and arbitrarily "biting their heads off" because of it. I'd much rather they "bite their heads" regarding what they're doing & their intentions, not what they are.
Because seriously, the argument "You're being mean with me because I'm a girl" gets old, and I am a girl. "You're being mean" should suffice.no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 03:49 am (UTC)In short: it's not "male oppressors;" it's "clueless businessmen, acting just like we expect males in business to act." Not that females in business can't be clueless... but they usually aren't, not like this--and not just because there's less of them.
It's not a straightforward, easy gender issue, but it does tie to gender politics.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:23 am (UTC)I guess I'm just really jarred at the "they are male" being used as an argument against them. The "you are mean because I am a girl" mentality translates, for me, as a "you are mean because you are a boy" which, really, is just as sexist as, and no better than a man going "I can pay you less because you are a woman".
I don't want to deny that there is gender involved (because hey, it's part of society, most people don't even realize they are taking gender roles for granted), but I would really, really, appreciate it not being an argument against them in our response.
And very pretty icon by the way. ♥
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 07:14 am (UTC)How about "You are mean because in our culture men are socialized to think it's okay for men to treat women badly; but it's not okay, so please think about what you're doing and stop"?
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Date: 2007-05-27 06:58 pm (UTC)And others might have before me, though I must have missed that.You're not the first. (http://teh-no.livejournal.com/399478.html?format=light)
no subject
Date: 2007-05-27 07:27 pm (UTC)*Faith in Humanity: Restored♥*Debating the strawfeminist
Date: 2007-05-26 02:31 pm (UTC)"To be honest, it's not that it's being made, but how it's being made that has bothered me and prompted me to comment above."
But nobody (that I have seen) has said ANY of those things. Nobody's used the word "male chauvinist" but you. Nobody's said men are evil. Nobody's said "I only see people as members of a gender, not as writers."
Nobody has made the arguments that you are happily refuting. Apparently you would rather argue with an imaginary feminist than argue with the real people who are here, saying quite different things.
Re: Debating the strawfeminist
Date: 2007-05-26 09:36 pm (UTC)I'm fairly sure I have seen comments (probably just a hand full amongst this mountain of debate, heck,) that seemed to reduce the Fanlib venture to the fact that their board was of only men, and seemed to paint it as an evil, but then again, I haven't bookmarked these comments, and I might have interpreted them wrongly or read them wrong.
And I'm not arguing with most of the people here because I'm agreeing with them. I'm just pointing at a problem I think needs pointing at, although after all this debate, I think I might as well just sit back again and do a lot of thinking and research.
I don't know what
Thanks for the reply.