Personnaly, it bother me when people are trying to explain to me that fandom belongs to women(fandom don't belongs to women, it don't belong to men either, and it don't belong to fanlib, it belongs to fan regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, nationality, political or religious opinion, et caetera).
It bother me when people are explaining to me that women are not writing for guys but for other women and that most of fanfictions aren't written for guys, it seemed disrespectfull for both guys(they could not enjoy something written by a woman or beeing interessed by something which interess a woman, that what I should understood?)and women(women are writing for readers and communicate something to human beeings with their writings. I don't think they thought that ONLY woman could respect their works and enjoy them).
It bother me when people are explaining to me that fandom should be seen as a form of feminine litterature which allows women to share their views, I find it disrespectfull for the fanfictions in general since it means it's just a substitute to real litterature(womena re riting them because society mades ahrder for them to wrote "real" litterature), and I've a problem with the concept of feminine litterature in itself(I would have the same problem if people were talking about male litterature, heterosexual litterature or white litterature).
And finally, it bother me when people are claiming that fandom is their own business and that fanlib is puting a foot in their sandbox. Fandom belongs to everyone, even if women are the majority(I would never denie that and it had never bothered me), they haven't more right about fandom that guys.We are ALL concerned. And no, I didn't put the opinions which bother me out of my hat, I'ev seen people claiming them.-_-;
After, I don't said that EVERY people who are talking about the gender issue have this kind of behaviour, and I could conced there is maybe some misunderstanding between some of the people which bother me and myself, maybe that I haven't understood their opinions.
I think the difference you would like to see made more clear is between "fandom is a female-dominated space" and "fandom is all women, all the time".
Fandom isn't all female, fandom is not inherently female. But it is a female-dominated space and many of us treasure it as a rare safe space online for women to talk frankly about the things we care about. In a lot of forums and venues, having a female screen name means you're 4 times more likely to be harassed. Women who talk about sex often get trolled relentlessly. Fandom is an exception to that and that's why some of us see it as a primarily female space, and see threats to it in gendered terms.
Well, if by "fandom is a female dominated space", you means that fandom is a space where most of the people are female, I've not a problem with that. And if female are not harassed in fandom like they were in other space and are more free to talk frankly about things whic interess them, I found it's a marvellous thing. (and everyone should agree that fandom should not be an exception for this matter).
My problem is when some people are describing the fandom like a private space for women and nothing more.
But since I'm a guy, maybe that's why it was hard for me to understood how female were treated differently in fandom and that's maybe the reason I've misundertsood some people about this matter.^^;
Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that, and I'm a male who frequently reads the gender discussions on metafandom and frequently participates in them from a male position. But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men. In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires. But that's not exclusion. It doesn't mean men aren't welcome to read and write and participate--because they are. (They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)
It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism. And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue.
It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space. We males get to run the rest of the world (and as much I try to work to change that fact, I don't see that changing any time soon, so in the meantime some coping mechanisms need to be put into place).
"Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that," Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that. But I've never said that most women thinks that.
"But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men." Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?That some fics writer don't care to have a men audience or not, I could understood that, but why trying to wrote stories which could be enjoyed specifically by a female audience?Why thinking that their stories could be enjoyed by women most by men? And what kind of stories could be enjoyed specifically for a female audience? And what is the interest to limit your audience in trying to adressing to women instead of readers?
"In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires." I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women. When I've listen people(men or women) saying that in fandom, things are mostly treated in a female perspective, I don't get what it means. What are the kind of things which could specifically interess women and not men, or who have handled by women in a different kind of way that it was by men? Romance? I know women in fandom who don't care at all for romance and din't get why pairing seemed so important(and for your information, I wrote and read mostly romance myself). Slash/yaoi? I know women who are far to be homophobic and who don't get at all the interest of yaoi/slash(and I read yaoi/slash myself and enjoy it, even if I'm a straight guy).
"It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism." So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women? They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more? And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
"(They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)" You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes. Men telling to me that women are opressing them in fandom or that women are not in their place in fandom bother me as well.
"It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space." Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that. woemn tha
"And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue." Why not? But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits. That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
"I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women." Sigh, stories which satisfies my need as a reader. i should get sleep..-_-;
Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that.
I'm a little skeptical on the "could be interpreted" front. It's very easy to feel excluded, yes, especially when people aren't talking to you.
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?
Well, mostly because it's the audience that's here. Some people write what they want and don't care what other people read it. Some people write the stories they think the audience (which is predominately female, and shares certain experiences) wants to read. Other people find it important to be writing for women as a community that doesn't get written for very often, since almost all of the media that is produced (throughout history and throughout the world) is geared to males. Some people--like myself--find they can say things from a position within a community of women that would damaging or disempowering in a different context. The reasons for writing to an audience of women are probably as many as there are fen.
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women?
Well, I'm not sure what direction the causality flows--in large part it's become a cultural niche for women because women wrote fanfiction and came to fandom, and most likely the causality flows both ways--but the fact is that it is a cultural niche for women that should be perserved.
They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
Whoever does anything for only one reason?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
No, sorry. Women on Earth in the 20th century didn't get to be individuals--the social context is too oppressive, they're always being interpellated in certain ways as part of a pattern of sexism in a sexist society. Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here.
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
You and I have the privilege to be able to do that because we're male, and if we want we can just ignore the entire history of assholish behavior of men against women across the millenia. Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that.
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that.
But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation.
But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits. That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
The issues intersect; "patriarchal logic" and the "logic of profits" are very much tied in to each other. Fen have been discussing the way the gender and capitalism issues intersect long before the FabLib discussion began (other people in this thread have been showing you links to those discussions, and you can find more just by browsing at metafandom); it's not just a random attack on a Board of Directors who just happen to be male, but an acknowledgement of a pattern within which this is only an example.
" find it funny how guys always get their rage on when they figure out that most fanfiction just isn't for them. Most fanfic is written by women for women. But mention this and watch them howl. They just have to have their hands in everything don't they, otherwise us women are taking something away from them. Which is funny since fanfiction, particularly my branch of it, is one of the few places women can go to find their interests focused on. Guys have everything else, have a lot of places to see their perspective focused on, but us women we try to have a place that is just about us and when we get angry that a bunch of men are trying to make a buck off of that...well we're all just crazy bitches.
NO ONE said you didn't have a right to post your fanfiction. But you have to make everything about you. You're not being oppressed. *Points toward the media, the news, corporations, pretty much everything that caters to the male pov* Get over yourself."
I'm sad to suck at html and don't be able to underline the points which bother me, but I think you could understood how this kind of comments could be badly interpretated without beeing oversensitive and paranoid about evil women's oprimating poor little men.
And no, it was not evil male chauvinist who get this answer, it was people(male and women) who did't understood why the gender issue was so important and were more interessed by the copyright or the author's exploitation issue.If you want to check the context before to judge, look at the link that I've given in one of my previous post.
And you didn't trully answer to my question. They're writing for an audience mostly made of female? Yes, and what are they writing which could be specifically interessing for their readers as female? How the fact that their audience is female is supposed to influence their writings and the kind of subject they chose?
Personnaly, I don't write for men, don't write for female either, and don't write something grey which could be enjoyed by both hypothetical male and hypothetical female. So I don't understood why some writers were trying to limitate their audience to a gender, and I thinks it's kind of stupid to reduce your readers as their gender but well, maybe it's me...
But I could understood why you didn't made a clear answer. After all, when I was defending yaoi in front of a female sceptical friend, I said to her there is as much reasons to write yaoi there is people interessed by yaoi.
"Well, I'm not sure what direction the causality flows--in large part it's become a cultural niche for women because women wrote fanfiction and came to fandom, and most likely the causality flows both ways--but the fact is that it is a cultural niche for women that should be perserved."
For obvious reason, I didn't came to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women, I came to it because I've enjoyed a fictionnal universe to the point of adding some wagons to this locomotive. Most of the girls I know in fandom came inside for the same reasons, that's why I didn't get this concept of fandom as a feminine cultural niche.
Sure, if female feels more free to be themselves in fandom, it would be another reasons for them to enjoy it, but I don't think it could be the reason which bring them here and made them remaining here. Otherwise, they wouldn't have much fun in fandom in my opinion.^^;
(My second post and my God, why the firstt one looks like a compact block of a text which must be a pain to read?-_-; Sorry for that and my lack of skills in html...^^; )
"Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here." And I found personnaly depreciative and limitative to reduce an individual to his/her gender. And I don't think that women have beguined to write fanfiction because they're women, are enjoying it because they're women and have built fandom in the purpose of create a free space for female. So why are you considering those who have built fandom like women instead of fans, or writers? Those people are nothing outside of their gender? Their behaviour is strictly controled by their gender?
"Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that." So women could never picture themselves as anything else that a woman? They're trapped in the patriarchy to the point they always act in reaction to an opressive pattern, they could never act and think by themselves outside of the place which are allowed to them by the patriarchy?
"But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation." I never said that this side of fandom shouldn't be preserved, but you were talking only about this side in your previous post.
Well, capitalism is a very complex issue and there is people more competent that me about this matter, but if you want my opinion, I think that capitalism could deal with gender equality without problem and could survive in a world free of the patriarchy.
(sigh) I hope that I didn't sound offensive or narrow-minded, and in the worse case, well, we could agree to desagree.^__^;
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timeasmymeasure
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 05:46 am (UTC)It bother me when people are explaining to me that women are not writing for guys but for other women and that most of fanfictions aren't written for guys, it seemed disrespectfull for both guys(they could not enjoy something written by a woman or beeing interessed by something which interess a woman, that what I should understood?)and women(women are writing for readers and communicate something to human beeings with their writings. I don't think they thought that ONLY woman could respect their works and enjoy them).
It bother me when people are explaining to me that fandom should be seen as a form of feminine litterature which allows women to share their views, I find it disrespectfull for the fanfictions in general since it means it's just a substitute to real litterature(womena re riting them because society mades ahrder for them to wrote "real" litterature), and I've a problem with the concept of feminine litterature in itself(I would have the same problem if people were talking about male litterature, heterosexual litterature or white litterature).
And finally, it bother me when people are claiming that fandom is their own business and that fanlib is puting a foot in their sandbox. Fandom belongs to everyone, even if women are the majority(I would never denie that and it had never bothered me), they haven't more right about fandom that guys.We are ALL concerned.
And no, I didn't put the opinions which bother me out of my hat, I'ev seen people claiming them.-_-;
After, I don't said that EVERY people who are talking about the gender issue have this kind of behaviour, and I could conced there is maybe some misunderstanding between some of the people which bother me and myself, maybe that I haven't understood their opinions.
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 07:10 am (UTC)Fandom isn't all female, fandom is not inherently female. But it is a female-dominated space and many of us treasure it as a rare safe space online for women to talk frankly about the things we care about. In a lot of forums and venues, having a female screen name means you're 4 times more likely to be harassed. Women who talk about sex often get trolled relentlessly. Fandom is an exception to that and that's why some of us see it as a primarily female space, and see threats to it in gendered terms.
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 07:24 am (UTC)And if female are not harassed in fandom like they were in other space and are more free to talk frankly about things whic interess them, I found it's a marvellous thing.
(and everyone should agree that fandom should not be an exception for this matter).
My problem is when some people are describing the fandom like a private space for women and nothing more.
But since I'm a guy, maybe that's why it was hard for me to understood how female were treated differently in fandom and that's maybe the reason I've misundertsood some people about this matter.^^;
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 10:34 am (UTC)Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that, and I'm a male who frequently reads the gender discussions on
It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism. And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue.
It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space. We males get to run the rest of the world (and as much I try to work to change that fact, I don't see that changing any time soon, so in the meantime some coping mechanisms need to be put into place).
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 11:48 am (UTC)Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that. But I've never said that most women thinks that.
"But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men."
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?That some fics writer don't care to have a men audience or not, I could understood that, but why trying to wrote stories which could be enjoyed specifically by a female audience?Why thinking that their stories could be enjoyed by women most by men? And what kind of stories could be enjoyed specifically for a female audience?
And what is the interest to limit your audience in trying to adressing to women instead of readers?
"In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires."
I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women.
When I've listen people(men or women) saying that in fandom, things are mostly treated in a female perspective, I don't get what it means.
What are the kind of things which could specifically interess women and not men, or who have handled by women in a different kind of way that it was by men?
Romance? I know women in fandom who don't care at all for romance and din't get why pairing seemed so important(and for your information, I wrote and read mostly romance myself).
Slash/yaoi? I know women who are far to be homophobic and who don't get at all the interest of yaoi/slash(and I read yaoi/slash myself and enjoy it, even if I'm a straight guy).
"It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism."
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women? They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
"(They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)"
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
Men telling to me that women are opressing them in fandom or that women are not in their place in fandom bother me as well.
"It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space."
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that. woemn tha
"And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue."
Why not? But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits.
That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 11:50 am (UTC)Sigh, stories which satisfies my need as a reader. i should get sleep..-_-;
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 01:19 pm (UTC)I'm a little skeptical on the "could be interpreted" front. It's very easy to feel excluded, yes, especially when people aren't talking to you.
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?
Well, mostly because it's the audience that's here. Some people write what they want and don't care what other people read it. Some people write the stories they think the audience (which is predominately female, and shares certain experiences) wants to read. Other people find it important to be writing for women as a community that doesn't get written for very often, since almost all of the media that is produced (throughout history and throughout the world) is geared to males. Some people--like myself--find they can say things from a position within a community of women that would damaging or disempowering in a different context. The reasons for writing to an audience of women are probably as many as there are fen.
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women?
Well, I'm not sure what direction the causality flows--in large part it's become a cultural niche for women because women wrote fanfiction and came to fandom, and most likely the causality flows both ways--but the fact is that it is a cultural niche for women that should be perserved.
They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
Whoever does anything for only one reason?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
No, sorry. Women on Earth in the 20th century didn't get to be individuals--the social context is too oppressive, they're always being interpellated in certain ways as part of a pattern of sexism in a sexist society. Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here.
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
You and I have the privilege to be able to do that because we're male, and if we want we can just ignore the entire history of assholish behavior of men against women across the millenia. Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that.
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that.
But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation.
But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits.
That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
The issues intersect; "patriarchal logic" and the "logic of profits" are very much tied in to each other. Fen have been discussing the way the gender and capitalism issues intersect long before the FabLib discussion began (other people in this thread have been showing you links to those discussions, and you can find more just by browsing at
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 01:11 am (UTC)Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 01:12 am (UTC)"Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here."
And I found personnaly depreciative and limitative to reduce an individual to his/her gender.
And I don't think that women have beguined to write fanfiction because they're women, are enjoying it because they're women and have built fandom in the purpose of create a free space for female.
So why are you considering those who have built fandom like women instead of fans, or writers?
Those people are nothing outside of their gender? Their behaviour is strictly controled by their gender?
"Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that."
So women could never picture themselves as anything else that a woman? They're trapped in the patriarchy to the point they always act in reaction to an opressive pattern, they could never act and think by themselves outside of the place which are allowed to them by the patriarchy?
"But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation."
I never said that this side of fandom shouldn't be preserved, but you were talking only about this side in your previous post.
Well, capitalism is a very complex issue and there is people more competent that me about this matter, but if you want my opinion, I think that capitalism could deal with gender equality without problem and could survive in a world free of the patriarchy.
(sigh)
I hope that I didn't sound offensive or narrow-minded, and in the worse case, well, we could agree to desagree.^__^;
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 03:52 pm (UTC)Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 05:27 am (UTC)