I don't think that Fanlib were trying to exploit WOMEN, obviously, they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women. And I don't understood how the fact that fanlib board are made of men change anything, would the situation be different if they have acted like they did but were women? If it's the case, I'm more worried by fandom that by fanlib.^^;
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty... Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"? Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.
I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all. I think their ads appear to be directed at men because they're trying to get more men into fan fiction (untapped market ahoy, especially since advertisers inexplicably prefer to reach a male audience), not because they think there are already lots of men into fan fiction.
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty... Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"? Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
How about I see it both ways? I'm irked that perfectly reasonable fans were ignored even after taking up his offer to "open a dialogue", but an academician was given an interview.
I also believe that gender figured into it, because frankly, the CEO made a ploy for sympathy with female fans that I have a hard time believing he would make if he were talking to men. Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway.
Honestly, when I see their strategy, I wonder if they've made serious study about their potential market and if they have a single bit of serious knowledge about fanfiction and the grey area where it takes place on a legal point of view. Their adds were obviously targeting men(in a very bad way but stills..) and I've thought they have made assumptions about the average fanfictions writer. But maybe you're right and they were trying to attract a male audience in fanfic business, it's a something I've never thought before but it mades perfect sense.
"Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway." Personnaly, I think that the CEO was more serious with Jenkins because he have understood that he had shoot himself in the foot with his previous childish behaviour and that the interview with jenkins were the best opportunity to restore a bit of credibility in front of the other fan. Or maybe that his market advisor have uses the cluebat on their boss and have succeded to explain to him that acting in front of the sceptic like an emo teenager was not the more clever move to made? I don't think that the difference of behaviour were specially related to a gender issue, but hey, it's just my opinion.
And I agree that both views about this interviews are valid, what it bother me is the fact that the gender issue seemed to be the ONLY view which matter for some people.
Major feminist here--going on thirty years--and gender wasn't the only issue for me (or any feminist post I read), but it was a key one.
And would it have been as bad had the board been all women doing exactly what FanLib did?
Well, see, there's *no* chance in the world that there would have been an all-woman board because women hit the same kinds of glass ceilings in the media companies as they do elsewhere -- so that's part of a feminist analysis for me as well (let's add race: apparently with one possible exception, they're all white and odds are most are straight--what kind of professional puts his baby on his resume? I teachd technical writing and have a resume assignment and make students take all personal/marital/etc. information off resumes).
The one self identified woman showed that women can be just as clueless and unprofessional as the men on the board; I don't believe having a woman guarantees any sort of quality.
I keep hearing that gender was the only issue for X people--but I haven't seen any of those posts. Care to link me to some?
Because all the ones I've seen started with the insult to basic fan intelligence about copyright, bad marketing, unprofesional communication, and no surprise look it's an all male board trying to make money off a female-oriented base (and if they didn't know fanfiction is primarily female-dominated and has been since the Trek days--I was in Star Trek fandom in the seventies--then they haven't been paying attention to the fandoms they claim to be in). Gender blindness was the added insult to the overall injury.
"I keep hearing that gender was the only issue for X people--but I haven't seen any of those posts. Care to link me to some? " For example, this thread on fanlib's forum. http://www.fanlib.com/posts/list/135/195.page (check the 10 and 11th pages)
I don't said that every fanlib's detractor had played the gender opression card, just that some of them have overused it(or that some of the people who have tryed to interogate the things with this perspective have a behaviour that I don't think better than the one which bother them).
And for the fact that the fanlib's board were made of men, well, why is this something RELATED specifically to fanlib and their business with fandom? You're telling me that it's unfair that women have not a better place in business's world? Or in society in general?No problem, I agree with you. You're telling me that fanlib's business men are dangerous BECAUSE they're men? No, I'm not with you anymore. Trying to made profit with fanfic is dangerous for the fandom, trying to exploit PEOPLE(men and women) without rewarding them is scandalous. Even if fanlib's board were the exceptions to the rules and dominated by women, the problem would be exactly the same for me.
And you have said it yourself, the problem is not limited to gender. But strangely, I did't see the "lifestyle" issue debated with fanlib. I did't see the race issue debated either.I did't see the social class issue debated either.
And yes, fanlib's guys were trully clueless about the fandom they wanted to exploit, I perfectly agree with you about this(and if they know that most of the people in fandom were women, their strategy sounds more ridiculous for me) but I think it's more stupidity than male chauvivism.
I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all.
They didn't, not really.
They looked into "fanfic." They discovered that there's no standard age range of fanfic authors, that the genders involved are almost impossible to sort out from online names (especially if you're not in the fandom), that fanfic authors range from barely-literate teens to PhDs, from retail clerks at Target to CEOs.
With those basic facts, they decided to skip all attempts to "market to the demographic"--there is no demographic, they decided, so they'd market to "the general public."
Which worked for eBay, and they're shocked it's not working for them. Like eBay, they want to have a site that offers a diverse collection of stuff, some obviously valuable, some obviously drek, and a whole bunch that's "one person's garbage is another's treasure." (The more I think about it, the more I think that might be the case: they want to be "just like eBay, except there's no payments involved! How can you lose?")
"advertisers inexplicably prefer to reach a male audience" I think that's got to do with the fact they tend to be male themselves, and it's easier to know what pleases a demographic if you're in it. This also explains they age group they tend to aim at: young to middle aged men.
More of a case of laziness than outright gender abuse if you ask me.
As for Williams feeling more comfortable with Jenkins, it runs along the same lines. He knows how Jenkins is likely to think better than he knows how fans think as his comment most clearly pointed out, if the business strategy didn't already. And I still think his sloppy emo response was intentionally so. He's probably used to using that kind of tack on other targets. Didn't someone mention them working on competitions events with a teenage group?
I think that's got to do with the fact they tend to be male themselves
It's because they believe men 18-34 have the most earning power and the least financial obligations of any market segment. And because 18-34 men are traditionally the most impulse-spending group. (Older, higher-earning men are usually married a/o homeowners less likely to blow $800 on speakers or what have you.)
I still think his sloppy emo response was intentionally so.
I think it was intentional too, and I find it somewhat sexist (unconsciously, perhaps) that he thought that tactic would work on us. Obviously he was wrong.
I don't think that Fanlib were trying to exploit WOMEN, obviously, they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.
They knew. Their corporate-sponsored fanfiction contests targeted women. They had a contest for mothers, a contest for girl teens, a contest for romance readers, and a contest for fans of The L Word.
I didn't know that. But if they knew, well, their previous marketing strategy sounds more ridiculous for me.^^; But I don't think they were trying to exploit women, they have not interessed by the fanfiction writers as woman but as living wallet. They'more a bunch of incompetents that evil male chauvinist in my opinion.
Why not both? (I drop the 'evil' because I don't like playing into the idea that sexism or racism or other prejudices are only the product of evol raving lunatics who want to kill everybody--those more overt manifestations are more socially unacceptable today--the problem is all the nice normal business as usual family guys who never even stop to think about gender because it's really not important in their pursuit of "good business.").
People who assume 51% of the human population are inferior to them are likely to be incompetent in many ways.
"People who assume 51% of the human population are inferior to them are likely to be incompetent in many ways." Fair enough. ^__^
But I don't think fanlib's men have neglected women because they thought that women were inferior or not important for their business. They have neglected because they don't have made their homework and study their market before to invade it. And if they have made serious study about fandom, or are part of the fandom like they're claming, I've serious doubt about their intelligence.
Thanks for the link--I'll read tomorrow, probably, starting to fade fast. Most of what I've read is on LJ of course.
And really--does it matter? In my fifties, I now don't give a damn about whether it's stupidity or male privilege or sexism, but I'm damn tired of a world in which mostly males screw up regularly (my campus is a prime example of this, so I'm coming from that context), and there's no way an outsider can discern any "intent" or know what the motive is or was.
And I say it doesn't matter--it's not up to those who have power to decide how those who hold less power interpret them.
I just wonder why it apparently bugs people that the gender argument is being made!
To be honest, it's not that it's being made, but how it's being made that has bothered me and prompted me to comment above.
See misogyny in Fanlib if you will, I just don't like seeing the "they are men" used as an accusation of its own. It bothers me just as much in this debate as it does when I see it used as some sort of justification for yaoi/slash.
It's the assumption that all men are inherently evil towards women, when from what I've seen it's mostly a case of them not questioning how they were brought up or how they behave. Many women do the same in my opinion, and I find it interesting that one of the things a male friend of mine wants to teach his sons is that "having something between your legs is not a crime".
That said, that was just my two cents to be taken for what it's worth, I guess. I need to get some sleep as well...
Personnaly, it bother me when people are trying to explain to me that fandom belongs to women(fandom don't belongs to women, it don't belong to men either, and it don't belong to fanlib, it belongs to fan regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, nationality, political or religious opinion, et caetera).
It bother me when people are explaining to me that women are not writing for guys but for other women and that most of fanfictions aren't written for guys, it seemed disrespectfull for both guys(they could not enjoy something written by a woman or beeing interessed by something which interess a woman, that what I should understood?)and women(women are writing for readers and communicate something to human beeings with their writings. I don't think they thought that ONLY woman could respect their works and enjoy them).
It bother me when people are explaining to me that fandom should be seen as a form of feminine litterature which allows women to share their views, I find it disrespectfull for the fanfictions in general since it means it's just a substitute to real litterature(womena re riting them because society mades ahrder for them to wrote "real" litterature), and I've a problem with the concept of feminine litterature in itself(I would have the same problem if people were talking about male litterature, heterosexual litterature or white litterature).
And finally, it bother me when people are claiming that fandom is their own business and that fanlib is puting a foot in their sandbox. Fandom belongs to everyone, even if women are the majority(I would never denie that and it had never bothered me), they haven't more right about fandom that guys.We are ALL concerned. And no, I didn't put the opinions which bother me out of my hat, I'ev seen people claiming them.-_-;
After, I don't said that EVERY people who are talking about the gender issue have this kind of behaviour, and I could conced there is maybe some misunderstanding between some of the people which bother me and myself, maybe that I haven't understood their opinions.
I think the difference you would like to see made more clear is between "fandom is a female-dominated space" and "fandom is all women, all the time".
Fandom isn't all female, fandom is not inherently female. But it is a female-dominated space and many of us treasure it as a rare safe space online for women to talk frankly about the things we care about. In a lot of forums and venues, having a female screen name means you're 4 times more likely to be harassed. Women who talk about sex often get trolled relentlessly. Fandom is an exception to that and that's why some of us see it as a primarily female space, and see threats to it in gendered terms.
Well, if by "fandom is a female dominated space", you means that fandom is a space where most of the people are female, I've not a problem with that. And if female are not harassed in fandom like they were in other space and are more free to talk frankly about things whic interess them, I found it's a marvellous thing. (and everyone should agree that fandom should not be an exception for this matter).
My problem is when some people are describing the fandom like a private space for women and nothing more.
But since I'm a guy, maybe that's why it was hard for me to understood how female were treated differently in fandom and that's maybe the reason I've misundertsood some people about this matter.^^;
Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that, and I'm a male who frequently reads the gender discussions on metafandom and frequently participates in them from a male position. But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men. In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires. But that's not exclusion. It doesn't mean men aren't welcome to read and write and participate--because they are. (They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)
It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism. And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue.
It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space. We males get to run the rest of the world (and as much I try to work to change that fact, I don't see that changing any time soon, so in the meantime some coping mechanisms need to be put into place).
"Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that," Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that. But I've never said that most women thinks that.
"But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men." Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?That some fics writer don't care to have a men audience or not, I could understood that, but why trying to wrote stories which could be enjoyed specifically by a female audience?Why thinking that their stories could be enjoyed by women most by men? And what kind of stories could be enjoyed specifically for a female audience? And what is the interest to limit your audience in trying to adressing to women instead of readers?
"In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires." I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women. When I've listen people(men or women) saying that in fandom, things are mostly treated in a female perspective, I don't get what it means. What are the kind of things which could specifically interess women and not men, or who have handled by women in a different kind of way that it was by men? Romance? I know women in fandom who don't care at all for romance and din't get why pairing seemed so important(and for your information, I wrote and read mostly romance myself). Slash/yaoi? I know women who are far to be homophobic and who don't get at all the interest of yaoi/slash(and I read yaoi/slash myself and enjoy it, even if I'm a straight guy).
"It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism." So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women? They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more? And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
"(They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)" You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes. Men telling to me that women are opressing them in fandom or that women are not in their place in fandom bother me as well.
"It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space." Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that. woemn tha
"And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue." Why not? But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits. That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
"I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women." Sigh, stories which satisfies my need as a reader. i should get sleep..-_-;
Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that.
I'm a little skeptical on the "could be interpreted" front. It's very easy to feel excluded, yes, especially when people aren't talking to you.
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?
Well, mostly because it's the audience that's here. Some people write what they want and don't care what other people read it. Some people write the stories they think the audience (which is predominately female, and shares certain experiences) wants to read. Other people find it important to be writing for women as a community that doesn't get written for very often, since almost all of the media that is produced (throughout history and throughout the world) is geared to males. Some people--like myself--find they can say things from a position within a community of women that would damaging or disempowering in a different context. The reasons for writing to an audience of women are probably as many as there are fen.
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women?
Well, I'm not sure what direction the causality flows--in large part it's become a cultural niche for women because women wrote fanfiction and came to fandom, and most likely the causality flows both ways--but the fact is that it is a cultural niche for women that should be perserved.
They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
Whoever does anything for only one reason?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
No, sorry. Women on Earth in the 20th century didn't get to be individuals--the social context is too oppressive, they're always being interpellated in certain ways as part of a pattern of sexism in a sexist society. Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here.
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
You and I have the privilege to be able to do that because we're male, and if we want we can just ignore the entire history of assholish behavior of men against women across the millenia. Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that.
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that.
But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation.
But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits. That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
The issues intersect; "patriarchal logic" and the "logic of profits" are very much tied in to each other. Fen have been discussing the way the gender and capitalism issues intersect long before the FabLib discussion began (other people in this thread have been showing you links to those discussions, and you can find more just by browsing at metafandom); it's not just a random attack on a Board of Directors who just happen to be male, but an acknowledgement of a pattern within which this is only an example.
" find it funny how guys always get their rage on when they figure out that most fanfiction just isn't for them. Most fanfic is written by women for women. But mention this and watch them howl. They just have to have their hands in everything don't they, otherwise us women are taking something away from them. Which is funny since fanfiction, particularly my branch of it, is one of the few places women can go to find their interests focused on. Guys have everything else, have a lot of places to see their perspective focused on, but us women we try to have a place that is just about us and when we get angry that a bunch of men are trying to make a buck off of that...well we're all just crazy bitches.
NO ONE said you didn't have a right to post your fanfiction. But you have to make everything about you. You're not being oppressed. *Points toward the media, the news, corporations, pretty much everything that caters to the male pov* Get over yourself."
I'm sad to suck at html and don't be able to underline the points which bother me, but I think you could understood how this kind of comments could be badly interpretated without beeing oversensitive and paranoid about evil women's oprimating poor little men.
And no, it was not evil male chauvinist who get this answer, it was people(male and women) who did't understood why the gender issue was so important and were more interessed by the copyright or the author's exploitation issue.If you want to check the context before to judge, look at the link that I've given in one of my previous post.
And you didn't trully answer to my question. They're writing for an audience mostly made of female? Yes, and what are they writing which could be specifically interessing for their readers as female? How the fact that their audience is female is supposed to influence their writings and the kind of subject they chose?
Personnaly, I don't write for men, don't write for female either, and don't write something grey which could be enjoyed by both hypothetical male and hypothetical female. So I don't understood why some writers were trying to limitate their audience to a gender, and I thinks it's kind of stupid to reduce your readers as their gender but well, maybe it's me...
But I could understood why you didn't made a clear answer. After all, when I was defending yaoi in front of a female sceptical friend, I said to her there is as much reasons to write yaoi there is people interessed by yaoi.
"Well, I'm not sure what direction the causality flows--in large part it's become a cultural niche for women because women wrote fanfiction and came to fandom, and most likely the causality flows both ways--but the fact is that it is a cultural niche for women that should be perserved."
For obvious reason, I didn't came to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women, I came to it because I've enjoyed a fictionnal universe to the point of adding some wagons to this locomotive. Most of the girls I know in fandom came inside for the same reasons, that's why I didn't get this concept of fandom as a feminine cultural niche.
Sure, if female feels more free to be themselves in fandom, it would be another reasons for them to enjoy it, but I don't think it could be the reason which bring them here and made them remaining here. Otherwise, they wouldn't have much fun in fandom in my opinion.^^;
(My second post and my God, why the firstt one looks like a compact block of a text which must be a pain to read?-_-; Sorry for that and my lack of skills in html...^^; )
"Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here." And I found personnaly depreciative and limitative to reduce an individual to his/her gender. And I don't think that women have beguined to write fanfiction because they're women, are enjoying it because they're women and have built fandom in the purpose of create a free space for female. So why are you considering those who have built fandom like women instead of fans, or writers? Those people are nothing outside of their gender? Their behaviour is strictly controled by their gender?
"Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that." So women could never picture themselves as anything else that a woman? They're trapped in the patriarchy to the point they always act in reaction to an opressive pattern, they could never act and think by themselves outside of the place which are allowed to them by the patriarchy?
"But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation." I never said that this side of fandom shouldn't be preserved, but you were talking only about this side in your previous post.
Well, capitalism is a very complex issue and there is people more competent that me about this matter, but if you want my opinion, I think that capitalism could deal with gender equality without problem and could survive in a world free of the patriarchy.
(sigh) I hope that I didn't sound offensive or narrow-minded, and in the worse case, well, we could agree to desagree.^__^;
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 02:42 am (UTC)And I don't understood how the fact that fanlib board are made of men change anything, would the situation be different if they have acted like they did but were women? If it's the case, I'm more worried by fandom that by fanlib.^^;
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty...
Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"?
Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 03:31 am (UTC)I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all. I think their ads appear to be directed at men because they're trying to get more men into fan fiction (untapped market ahoy, especially since advertisers inexplicably prefer to reach a male audience), not because they think there are already lots of men into fan fiction.
And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty...
Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"?
Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"
How about I see it both ways? I'm irked that perfectly reasonable fans were ignored even after taking up his offer to "open a dialogue", but an academician was given an interview.
I also believe that gender figured into it, because frankly, the CEO made a ploy for sympathy with female fans that I have a hard time believing he would make if he were talking to men. Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 03:59 am (UTC)Their adds were obviously targeting men(in a very bad way but stills..) and I've thought they have made assumptions about the average fanfictions writer.
But maybe you're right and they were trying to attract a male audience in fanfic business, it's a something I've never thought before but it mades perfect sense.
"Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway."
Personnaly, I think that the CEO was more serious with Jenkins because he have understood that he had shoot himself in the foot with his previous childish behaviour and that the interview with jenkins were the best opportunity to restore a bit of credibility in front of the other fan.
Or maybe that his market advisor have uses the cluebat on their boss and have succeded to explain to him that acting in front of the sceptic like an emo teenager was not the more clever move to made?
I don't think that the difference of behaviour were specially related to a gender issue, but hey, it's just my opinion.
And I agree that both views about this interviews are valid, what it bother me is the fact that the gender issue seemed to be the ONLY view which matter for some people.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:15 am (UTC)And would it have been as bad had the board been all women doing exactly what FanLib did?
Well, see, there's *no* chance in the world that there would have been an all-woman board because women hit the same kinds of glass ceilings in the media companies as they do elsewhere -- so that's part of a feminist analysis for me as well (let's add race: apparently with one possible exception, they're all white and odds are most are straight--what kind of professional puts his baby on his resume? I teachd technical writing and have a resume assignment and make students take all personal/marital/etc. information off resumes).
The one self identified woman showed that women can be just as clueless and unprofessional as the men on the board; I don't believe having a woman guarantees any sort of quality.
I keep hearing that gender was the only issue for X people--but I haven't seen any of those posts. Care to link me to some?
Because all the ones I've seen started with the insult to basic fan intelligence about copyright, bad marketing, unprofesional communication, and no surprise look it's an all male board trying to make money off a female-oriented base (and if they didn't know fanfiction is primarily female-dominated and has been since the Trek days--I was in Star Trek fandom in the seventies--then they haven't been paying attention to the fandoms they claim to be in). Gender blindness was the added insult to the overall injury.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:46 am (UTC)For example, this thread on fanlib's forum.
http://www.fanlib.com/posts/list/135/195.page
(check the 10 and 11th pages)
I don't said that every fanlib's detractor had played the gender opression card, just that some of them have overused it(or that some of the people who have tryed to interogate the things with this perspective have a behaviour that I don't think better than the one which bother them).
And for the fact that the fanlib's board were made of men, well, why is this something RELATED specifically to fanlib and their business with fandom?
You're telling me that it's unfair that women have not a better place in business's world? Or in society in general?No problem, I agree with you.
You're telling me that fanlib's business men are dangerous BECAUSE they're men? No, I'm not with you anymore. Trying to made profit with fanfic is dangerous for the fandom, trying to exploit PEOPLE(men and women) without rewarding them is scandalous. Even if fanlib's board were the exceptions to the rules and dominated by women, the problem would be exactly the same for me.
And you have said it yourself, the problem is not limited to gender. But strangely, I did't see the "lifestyle" issue debated with fanlib. I did't see the race issue debated either.I did't see the social class issue debated either.
And yes, fanlib's guys were trully clueless about the fandom they wanted to exploit, I perfectly agree with you about this(and if they know that most of the people in fandom were women, their strategy sounds more ridiculous for me) but I think it's more stupidity than male chauvivism.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:03 am (UTC)They didn't, not really.
They looked into "fanfic." They discovered that there's no standard age range of fanfic authors, that the genders involved are almost impossible to sort out from online names (especially if you're not in the fandom), that fanfic authors range from barely-literate teens to PhDs, from retail clerks at Target to CEOs.
With those basic facts, they decided to skip all attempts to "market to the demographic"--there is no demographic, they decided, so they'd market to "the general public."
Which worked for eBay, and they're shocked it's not working for them. Like eBay, they want to have a site that offers a diverse collection of stuff, some obviously valuable, some obviously drek, and a whole bunch that's "one person's garbage is another's treasure." (The more I think about it, the more I think that might be the case: they want to be "just like eBay, except there's no payments involved! How can you lose?")
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:59 am (UTC)I think that's got to do with the fact they tend to be male themselves, and it's easier to know what pleases a demographic if you're in it. This also explains they age group they tend to aim at: young to middle aged men.
More of a case of laziness than outright gender abuse if you ask me.
As for Williams feeling more comfortable with Jenkins, it runs along the same lines. He knows how Jenkins is likely to think better than he knows how fans think
as his comment most clearly pointed out, if the business strategy didn't already.And I still think his sloppy emo response was intentionally so. He's probably used to using that kind of tack on other targets. Didn't someone mention them working on
competitionsevents with a teenage group?no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 06:49 am (UTC)It's because they believe men 18-34 have the most earning power and the least financial obligations of any market segment. And because 18-34 men are traditionally the most impulse-spending group. (Older, higher-earning men are usually married a/o homeowners less likely to blow $800 on speakers or what have you.)
I still think his sloppy emo response was intentionally so.
I think it was intentional too, and I find it somewhat sexist (unconsciously, perhaps) that he thought that tactic would work on us. Obviously he was wrong.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 03:43 am (UTC)They knew. Their corporate-sponsored fanfiction contests targeted women. They had a contest for mothers, a contest for girl teens, a contest for romance readers, and a contest for fans of The L Word.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:04 am (UTC)But I don't think they were trying to exploit women, they have not interessed by the fanfiction writers as woman but as living wallet.
They'more a bunch of incompetents that evil male chauvinist in my opinion.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:18 am (UTC)Why not both? (I drop the 'evil' because I don't like playing into the idea that sexism or racism or other prejudices are only the product of evol raving lunatics who want to kill everybody--those more overt manifestations are more socially unacceptable today--the problem is all the nice normal business as usual family guys who never even stop to think about gender because it's really not important in their pursuit of "good business.").
People who assume 51% of the human population are inferior to them are likely to be incompetent in many ways.
no subject
Date: 2007-05-26 04:49 am (UTC)Fair enough. ^__^
But I don't think fanlib's men have neglected women because they thought that women were inferior or not important for their business.
They have neglected because they don't have made their homework and study their market before to invade it.
And if they have made serious study about fandom, or are part of the fandom like they're claming, I've serious doubt about their intelligence.
stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 05:18 am (UTC)And really--does it matter? In my fifties, I now don't give a damn about whether it's stupidity or male privilege or sexism, but I'm damn tired of a world in which mostly males screw up regularly (my campus is a prime example of this, so I'm coming from that context), and there's no way an outsider can discern any "intent" or know what the motive is or was.
And I say it doesn't matter--it's not up to those who have power to decide how those who hold less power interpret them.
I just wonder why it apparently bugs people that the gender argument is being made!
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 05:43 am (UTC)See misogyny in Fanlib if you will, I just don't like seeing the "they are men" used as an accusation of its own. It bothers me just as much in this debate as it does when I see it used as some sort of justification for yaoi/slash.
It's the assumption that all men are inherently evil towards women, when from what I've seen it's mostly a case of them not questioning how they were brought up or how they behave. Many women do the same in my opinion, and I find it interesting that one of the things a male friend of mine wants to teach his sons is that "having something between your legs is not a crime".
That said, that was just my two cents to be taken for what it's worth, I guess.
I need to get some sleep as well...
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 05:46 am (UTC)It bother me when people are explaining to me that women are not writing for guys but for other women and that most of fanfictions aren't written for guys, it seemed disrespectfull for both guys(they could not enjoy something written by a woman or beeing interessed by something which interess a woman, that what I should understood?)and women(women are writing for readers and communicate something to human beeings with their writings. I don't think they thought that ONLY woman could respect their works and enjoy them).
It bother me when people are explaining to me that fandom should be seen as a form of feminine litterature which allows women to share their views, I find it disrespectfull for the fanfictions in general since it means it's just a substitute to real litterature(womena re riting them because society mades ahrder for them to wrote "real" litterature), and I've a problem with the concept of feminine litterature in itself(I would have the same problem if people were talking about male litterature, heterosexual litterature or white litterature).
And finally, it bother me when people are claiming that fandom is their own business and that fanlib is puting a foot in their sandbox. Fandom belongs to everyone, even if women are the majority(I would never denie that and it had never bothered me), they haven't more right about fandom that guys.We are ALL concerned.
And no, I didn't put the opinions which bother me out of my hat, I'ev seen people claiming them.-_-;
After, I don't said that EVERY people who are talking about the gender issue have this kind of behaviour, and I could conced there is maybe some misunderstanding between some of the people which bother me and myself, maybe that I haven't understood their opinions.
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 07:10 am (UTC)Fandom isn't all female, fandom is not inherently female. But it is a female-dominated space and many of us treasure it as a rare safe space online for women to talk frankly about the things we care about. In a lot of forums and venues, having a female screen name means you're 4 times more likely to be harassed. Women who talk about sex often get trolled relentlessly. Fandom is an exception to that and that's why some of us see it as a primarily female space, and see threats to it in gendered terms.
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 07:24 am (UTC)And if female are not harassed in fandom like they were in other space and are more free to talk frankly about things whic interess them, I found it's a marvellous thing.
(and everyone should agree that fandom should not be an exception for this matter).
My problem is when some people are describing the fandom like a private space for women and nothing more.
But since I'm a guy, maybe that's why it was hard for me to understood how female were treated differently in fandom and that's maybe the reason I've misundertsood some people about this matter.^^;
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 10:34 am (UTC)Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that, and I'm a male who frequently reads the gender discussions on
It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism. And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue.
It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space. We males get to run the rest of the world (and as much I try to work to change that fact, I don't see that changing any time soon, so in the meantime some coping mechanisms need to be put into place).
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 11:48 am (UTC)Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that. But I've never said that most women thinks that.
"But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men."
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?That some fics writer don't care to have a men audience or not, I could understood that, but why trying to wrote stories which could be enjoyed specifically by a female audience?Why thinking that their stories could be enjoyed by women most by men? And what kind of stories could be enjoyed specifically for a female audience?
And what is the interest to limit your audience in trying to adressing to women instead of readers?
"In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires."
I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women.
When I've listen people(men or women) saying that in fandom, things are mostly treated in a female perspective, I don't get what it means.
What are the kind of things which could specifically interess women and not men, or who have handled by women in a different kind of way that it was by men?
Romance? I know women in fandom who don't care at all for romance and din't get why pairing seemed so important(and for your information, I wrote and read mostly romance myself).
Slash/yaoi? I know women who are far to be homophobic and who don't get at all the interest of yaoi/slash(and I read yaoi/slash myself and enjoy it, even if I'm a straight guy).
"It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism."
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women? They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
"(They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)"
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
Men telling to me that women are opressing them in fandom or that women are not in their place in fandom bother me as well.
"It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space."
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that. woemn tha
"And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue."
Why not? But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits.
That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 11:50 am (UTC)Sigh, stories which satisfies my need as a reader. i should get sleep..-_-;
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 01:19 pm (UTC)I'm a little skeptical on the "could be interpreted" front. It's very easy to feel excluded, yes, especially when people aren't talking to you.
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?
Well, mostly because it's the audience that's here. Some people write what they want and don't care what other people read it. Some people write the stories they think the audience (which is predominately female, and shares certain experiences) wants to read. Other people find it important to be writing for women as a community that doesn't get written for very often, since almost all of the media that is produced (throughout history and throughout the world) is geared to males. Some people--like myself--find they can say things from a position within a community of women that would damaging or disempowering in a different context. The reasons for writing to an audience of women are probably as many as there are fen.
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women?
Well, I'm not sure what direction the causality flows--in large part it's become a cultural niche for women because women wrote fanfiction and came to fandom, and most likely the causality flows both ways--but the fact is that it is a cultural niche for women that should be perserved.
They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
Whoever does anything for only one reason?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
No, sorry. Women on Earth in the 20th century didn't get to be individuals--the social context is too oppressive, they're always being interpellated in certain ways as part of a pattern of sexism in a sexist society. Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here.
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
You and I have the privilege to be able to do that because we're male, and if we want we can just ignore the entire history of assholish behavior of men against women across the millenia. Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that.
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that.
But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation.
But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits.
That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
The issues intersect; "patriarchal logic" and the "logic of profits" are very much tied in to each other. Fen have been discussing the way the gender and capitalism issues intersect long before the FabLib discussion began (other people in this thread have been showing you links to those discussions, and you can find more just by browsing at
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 01:11 am (UTC)Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 01:12 am (UTC)"Calling them "individuals" isn't a way of disregarding the gender issues at work here."
And I found personnaly depreciative and limitative to reduce an individual to his/her gender.
And I don't think that women have beguined to write fanfiction because they're women, are enjoying it because they're women and have built fandom in the purpose of create a free space for female.
So why are you considering those who have built fandom like women instead of fans, or writers?
Those people are nothing outside of their gender? Their behaviour is strictly controled by their gender?
"Whereas women can never forget the fact that they're female, and the social context that goes with that."
So women could never picture themselves as anything else that a woman? They're trapped in the patriarchy to the point they always act in reaction to an opressive pattern, they could never act and think by themselves outside of the place which are allowed to them by the patriarchy?
"But that aspect of fandom should be preserved and I don't see what the issue with those who utilize and value it fighting against its co-optation."
I never said that this side of fandom shouldn't be preserved, but you were talking only about this side in your previous post.
Well, capitalism is a very complex issue and there is people more competent that me about this matter, but if you want my opinion, I think that capitalism could deal with gender equality without problem and could survive in a world free of the patriarchy.
(sigh)
I hope that I didn't sound offensive or narrow-minded, and in the worse case, well, we could agree to desagree.^__^;
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 03:52 pm (UTC)Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-27 05:27 am (UTC)