life_wo_fanlib | Henry Jenkins and Chris Williams Interview

Thank you. Unfortunately, nothing has changed. Chris Williams is saying what he's been saying from the beginning: give me your fanfiction so I can use it to attract visitors to my website and sell them stuff. You get nothing. I get everything. Have a nice day!

Also, I'm crushed that pink dude/blue guy have apparently been dumped. NO!!!

Oddly, it was this interview that spurred me to delete the two short stories I uploaded to FanLib. In my particular neck of the fandom world, some fic writers who I respect very much are affliated with FanLib and while I wish them the best of luck, I'm no longer currently comfortable with hosting fic there, if things change in the future, I dunno....we'll see.

Let me tell you, Interwebz, that is some zero traffic kinda place. I think I get more views on my RPG...in the posts where I simply make a laundry list of the posts I owe for the day (Forum based play by post)...and that's not hyperbole. I get more views in ten minutes on FFN than I did in four days on FanLib. There are people there who have fic posted in very popular fandoms like Heroes, and have earned maybe seven views or less in a month. Which seemed odd to me, especially considering how much recent publicity FanLib has received lately.

Ah well.

This bit:

I do think your question is a bit unfair, but I'll answer anyway. I am here because you hold dual citizenship in fandom and academia, you maintain credibility and integrity in both worlds, and you told me I you would get a fair hearing and you would share the unedited results of our interview in its entirety with those interested in the matter. Meanwhile, we've been listening to the many comments we've received from the community and taking action. For proof check out our new TOS and FAQ on our website.

We intend to continue the conversation with the fan fiction community through our developing fan advisory board and, as time permits, by responding to other inquiries, comments and requests that we receive from interested individuals - obviously, regardless of gender.

was really all I needed.

I'm so glad he's disregarding gender. Just watch him. He's disregarding gender so hard drops of blood are bursting from his forehead.

Let me tell you, Interwebz, that is some zero traffic kinda place.

Yes! It really is!

Yeah, I suppose that bothered me as well, once I really realized just how much money would be being generated from deals being made with Showtime, etc. And all we get is a free tee-shirt and barely any feedback.

I've been watching most of the fanlib debate without really participating myself, but I do feel the need to point out that I think the gender argument has been terribly overplayed, and has been cause for a rant from one of my favourite fic authors who happens to be a fanboy, despite the fact that he and I both agree on many of the points brought up in all this debate. :p

It is kind of insulting I find to see pseudo-feminist views brought up as supposedly strong arguments, and I am sure most people, when thinking of other people don't think of them as exclusively "O+" or "<-o", but as "readers" "writers" "fans" "employees" "employers" and so on.
I don't deny that feminism* has done good for woman in the past, or that there's been no need for it, I'm just saying that I'm kind of irked at seeing people pointing and saying "Male Oppression!" without real cause to.

*I also want to point out that I am well aware that feminist theory is a huge subject, and I hardly know anything about it, still.

And sorry if this comment is out of place, I just really felt the need to point this out. ~~And others might have before me, though I must have missed that.~~

There's Stargate: Atlantis fic on that site that's been there for weeks without getting any feedback. You can't post about Rodney washing his socks on LJ without getting comments within a day-- a page and a half of them, if you post to a community.

I'm kind of irked at seeing people pointing and saying "Male Oppression!" without real cause to.

I think the real cause is that a male board of directors and investors are trying to make money off the gift economy created by a fan fic-writing population that is, at last survey, 90+ percent female, while brushing off female fans' inquiries about their business, yet taking the time to answer a male fan at length. I'm sure Henry Jenkins' academic credentials were a huge factor also in his being taken seriously, but it still tastes like sexism to the female fans who were discussing this in grown-up fashion and got a childish rant from the CEO, followed by a brush-off.

The gender issue is difficult to see. So I shall tell a story to illustrate it.

When I was a teenager, boys who mowed lawns got paid five times as much as girls who watched babies. The girl babysitters got a dollar an hour, the boys got five bucks per lawn [which usually took less than an hour to mow]. Why? Are lawns more important than babies? Most people don't think so.

It happened because culturally [going back centuries] women's labor is marginalized, devalued, and unpaid. This keeps women marginalized, broke, and dependent on others.

Chris Williams and the other members of FanLib want to take the work of female fanfiction writers, give them nothing, and make millions off of it. Is that relevant to gender issues? Hell, yes.

As a teenager, I complained about only getting a buck for babysitting. A boy told me it was fair, though, because he had to pay for gas for the lawnmower, and the lawnmower, too. Except it wasn't his lawnmower. I think that boy grew up to be Chris Williams.

Leaving aside gender issues, however, FanLib is a raw deal for fanfiction writers, regardless of their sex.

I don't think that Fanlib were trying to exploit WOMEN, obviously, they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.
And I don't understood how the fact that fanlib board are made of men change anything, would the situation be different if they have acted like they did but were women? If it's the case, I'm more worried by fandom that by fanlib.^^;

And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty...
Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"?
Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"

"Chris Williams and the other members of FanLib want to take the work of female fanfiction writers, give them nothing, and make millions off of it. Is that relevant to gender issues? Hell, yes."
Hell, no.
They want to take the work of male fanfiction writer too, so gender don't matter.
It's not because guys are the minority in the fandom that it means they are less concerned by women about Fanlib's project.

...

Or should I said that Fanlib's business is an heterosexual issue since most of the fanfiction writer are heterosexual? Hell, have you checked if fanlib's board are homoseual or heterosexual? Does homosexual writers less exploited than heterosexual writers since they're a minority?

"It's not because guys are the minority in the fandom that it means they are less concerned by women about Fanlib's project."
less concerned THAN women. Me and my awfull english.-_-;

I agree that the Fanlib venture is a raw deal for fanfic writers, and to go with your story, I think it would be like paying any girl or boy who decided to babysit 5 times less than those who mow the lawn. Granted, the babysitting activity is more often entrusted to girls than boys (and vice-versa regarding lawn mowing), and it is degrading for that activity to be considered "lesser" than the other. It might be because it's an activity associated with girls, or mainly because they think it's an activity that demands less effort. (Having mowed my parents' lawn a couple of times, I know how hard it is to push a heavy lawnmower up a hill.)
Now what your story says to me is that parents value their lawns more then babies, and that makes me sad. D:

But okay, yes, I do see your point, and agree that it's terribly unfair in itself. I'd recommend that the babysitters go and state that it's unfair to the payers and demand the same amount ~~pointing out that it's babies' lives they are entrusting dammit~~. And that's what I hope the fanfic community is doing with Fanlib (& the bunch of IP laws that seem to be happening, ouch?).

How successful we will be, we shall have to see. *crossing fingers*

I don't deny the need to demand an equal treatment, I'm just not happy at people seeing "a bunch of men" and arbitrarily "biting their heads off" because of it. I'd much rather they "bite their heads" regarding what they're doing & their intentions, not what they are. ~~Because seriously, the argument "You're being mean with me because I'm a girl" gets old, and I am a girl. "You're being mean" should suffice.~~

they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.

I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all. I think their ads appear to be directed at men because they're trying to get more men into fan fiction (untapped market ahoy, especially since advertisers inexplicably prefer to reach a male audience), not because they think there are already lots of men into fan fiction.

And for the fact that they have chose to communicate with Henry Jenkins instead of the fan communauty...
Well, why see that with the point of view "They have taken seriously a man instead of women"?
Why not see that with the point of view"They have taken seriously and academician instead of members of the fics communauty?"

How about I see it both ways? I'm irked that perfectly reasonable fans were ignored even after taking up his offer to "open a dialogue", but an academician was given an interview.

I also believe that gender figured into it, because frankly, the CEO made a ploy for sympathy with female fans that I have a hard time believing he would make if he were talking to men. Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway.

I don't think that Fanlib were trying to exploit WOMEN, obviously, they didn't realize in the first instance that fanfictions were written mostly by women.

They knew. Their corporate-sponsored fanfiction contests targeted women. They had a contest for mothers, a contest for girl teens, a contest for romance readers, and a contest for fans of The L Word.

I think some of the "Male Oppression" cries are overdone. However, they do come across as clueless about the communities they're asking to provide them with valuable content... and while that's not so much a "male" thing as a "dominant" thing (I will decide what happens; you will make it so), in this culture, they're pretty closely tied, especially in business--and a business that wants to work closely with skilled workers who are, by vast majority, women, should be sharply aware of that.

In short: it's not "male oppressors;" it's "clueless businessmen, acting just like we expect males in business to act." Not that females in business can't be clueless... but they usually aren't, not like this--and not just because there's less of them.

It's not a straightforward, easy gender issue, but it does tie to gender politics.

Honestly, when I see their strategy, I wonder if they've made serious study about their potential market and if they have a single bit of serious knowledge about fanfiction and the grey area where it takes place on a legal point of view.
Their adds were obviously targeting men(in a very bad way but stills..) and I've thought they have made assumptions about the average fanfictions writer.
But maybe you're right and they were trying to attract a male audience in fanfic business, it's a something I've never thought before but it mades perfect sense.

"Female fans got his sloppy emo comment response while the male academician got a much more professional interview. I think it's a gender issue and a status issue, and the two are frequently intertwined anyway."
Personnaly, I think that the CEO was more serious with Jenkins because he have understood that he had shoot himself in the foot with his previous childish behaviour and that the interview with jenkins were the best opportunity to restore a bit of credibility in front of the other fan.
Or maybe that his market advisor have uses the cluebat on their boss and have succeded to explain to him that acting in front of the sceptic like an emo teenager was not the more clever move to made?
I don't think that the difference of behaviour were specially related to a gender issue, but hey, it's just my opinion.

And I agree that both views about this interviews are valid, what it bother me is the fact that the gender issue seemed to be the ONLY view which matter for some people.

I don't think we disagree on this. I said it was a raw deal for everyone, regardless of gender.

Take, for example, nurses. [Covers bexone's eyes] For decades they were paid a wage they could barely live on. There were very few male nurses then because men could find higher paying jobs. Women, however, had few job options. They could be nurses, secretaries, teachers, or mommies.

Slowly, nurses gained better benefits because women had more job options, and no longer had to accept back-breaking jobs with low pay. That helped the male nurses, too, but it was incidental. I'm sure the male nurses were just as disgusted with getting paid peanuts as the women were. But that doesn't change the fact that nurses were treated abysmally because they were mostly women.

I don't think it matters, though, if FanLib's board is all men, or all women. Regardless of gender, they are rich people who want to get richer by using our work without compensation.

I don't know how they could miss that if they did any market research at all.

They didn't, not really.

They looked into "fanfic." They discovered that there's no standard age range of fanfic authors, that the genders involved are almost impossible to sort out from online names (especially if you're not in the fandom), that fanfic authors range from barely-literate teens to PhDs, from retail clerks at Target to CEOs.

With those basic facts, they decided to skip all attempts to "market to the demographic"--there is no demographic, they decided, so they'd market to "the general public."

Which worked for eBay, and they're shocked it's not working for them. Like eBay, they want to have a site that offers a diverse collection of stuff, some obviously valuable, some obviously drek, and a whole bunch that's "one person's garbage is another's treasure." (The more I think about it, the more I think that might be the case: they want to be "just like eBay, except there's no payments involved! How can you lose?")

I didn't know that. But if they knew, well, their previous marketing strategy sounds more ridiculous for me.^^;
But I don't think they were trying to exploit women, they have not interessed by the fanfiction writers as woman but as living wallet.
They'more a bunch of incompetents that evil male chauvinist in my opinion.

I kind of know this problem since I'm trying to work in an area were woman outnumbered men for decenies(not nurse but taking care of child, sorry but I don't know the english word for this profession...^^; ).

I agree there is a gender problem in the case of nurses, but it's harder for me to see an equivalent problem in fanfic.
Nurse were a work outnumbered by women because of cultural prejudice stating that it was a work where women have their right place(Women are made for take care of child and not serious work and some other craps...).
But it's hard for me to see the fanfiction writing like something where women outnumbered men for cultural prejudice.
Why derivative writings are something which could interess women more than men? Why building stories about a pre-existant fictionnal universe is something seen like specifically feminine?It's something that I don't understood.
Sure, there is, in fact, more women that men in the fandom, but I don't think that's something related to the nature of fanfiction by itself.
That's why it's hard for me to picture that as a gender issue. My opinion about fanlib is perfectly summarized by your alst sentences.
"I don't think it matters, though, if FanLib's board is all men, or all women. Regardless of gender, they are rich people who want to get richer by using our work without compensation."

Major feminist here--going on thirty years--and gender wasn't the only issue for me (or any feminist post I read), but it was a key one.

And would it have been as bad had the board been all women doing exactly what FanLib did?

Well, see, there's *no* chance in the world that there would have been an all-woman board because women hit the same kinds of glass ceilings in the media companies as they do elsewhere -- so that's part of a feminist analysis for me as well (let's add race: apparently with one possible exception, they're all white and odds are most are straight--what kind of professional puts his baby on his resume? I teachd technical writing and have a resume assignment and make students take all personal/marital/etc. information off resumes).

The one self identified woman showed that women can be just as clueless and unprofessional as the men on the board; I don't believe having a woman guarantees any sort of quality.

I keep hearing that gender was the only issue for X people--but I haven't seen any of those posts. Care to link me to some?

Because all the ones I've seen started with the insult to basic fan intelligence about copyright, bad marketing, unprofesional communication, and no surprise look it's an all male board trying to make money off a female-oriented base (and if they didn't know fanfiction is primarily female-dominated and has been since the Trek days--I was in Star Trek fandom in the seventies--then they haven't been paying attention to the fandoms they claim to be in). Gender blindness was the added insult to the overall injury.

More incompetent than male chauvinists?

Why not both? (I drop the 'evil' because I don't like playing into the idea that sexism or racism or other prejudices are only the product of evol raving lunatics who want to kill everybody--those more overt manifestations are more socially unacceptable today--the problem is all the nice normal business as usual family guys who never even stop to think about gender because it's really not important in their pursuit of "good business.").

People who assume 51% of the human population are inferior to them are likely to be incompetent in many ways.

oooo, than you for posting this info--fascinating to hear and I'm going to feature on my LJ because wow, lack of feedback!

Henry Jenkins and Chris Williams Interview

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