"Nobody's saying that men can't enjoy fanfic or shouldn't read fanfic--or at least I've never seen anyone saying that," Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that. But I've never said that most women thinks that.
"But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men." Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?That some fics writer don't care to have a men audience or not, I could understood that, but why trying to wrote stories which could be enjoyed specifically by a female audience?Why thinking that their stories could be enjoyed by women most by men? And what kind of stories could be enjoyed specifically for a female audience? And what is the interest to limit your audience in trying to adressing to women instead of readers?
"In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires." I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women. When I've listen people(men or women) saying that in fandom, things are mostly treated in a female perspective, I don't get what it means. What are the kind of things which could specifically interess women and not men, or who have handled by women in a different kind of way that it was by men? Romance? I know women in fandom who don't care at all for romance and din't get why pairing seemed so important(and for your information, I wrote and read mostly romance myself). Slash/yaoi? I know women who are far to be homophobic and who don't get at all the interest of yaoi/slash(and I read yaoi/slash myself and enjoy it, even if I'm a straight guy).
"It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism." So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women? They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more? And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
"(They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)" You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes. Men telling to me that women are opressing them in fandom or that women are not in their place in fandom bother me as well.
"It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space." Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that. woemn tha
"And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue." Why not? But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits. That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: stupidity vs. sexism
Date: 2007-05-26 11:48 am (UTC)Unfotunatly, I've seen women saying that or something which could be interpreted like that. But I've never said that most women thinks that.
"But "it's not written for you" isn't exclusionary--except from a position of male privilege which thinks everything should cater to the experience of men."
Well, for me it's kind of exclusionary. Why wrote stories only for a women audience?That some fics writer don't care to have a men audience or not, I could understood that, but why trying to wrote stories which could be enjoyed specifically by a female audience?Why thinking that their stories could be enjoyed by women most by men? And what kind of stories could be enjoyed specifically for a female audience?
And what is the interest to limit your audience in trying to adressing to women instead of readers?
"In fandom we men face what women face every day, a thousand times worse: a discourse that doesn't cater to our needs and desires."
I never feeled opressed by women in fandom and most of the times, I could find stories which satisfy my need as a writer, stories written most of the time by women.
When I've listen people(men or women) saying that in fandom, things are mostly treated in a female perspective, I don't get what it means.
What are the kind of things which could specifically interess women and not men, or who have handled by women in a different kind of way that it was by men?
Romance? I know women in fandom who don't care at all for romance and din't get why pairing seemed so important(and for your information, I wrote and read mostly romance myself).
Slash/yaoi? I know women who are far to be homophobic and who don't get at all the interest of yaoi/slash(and I read yaoi/slash myself and enjoy it, even if I'm a straight guy).
"It means that women have built this place--often in the face of the jeers of their male counterparts--they've come to this community, as a place where they can talk about things including sexuality, where they can come to terms with things like sexuality, where they can interact (somewhat) outside the structures of patriarchy and capitalism."
So, if I get you right, women wrote fanfiction and come to fandom because it's a cultural niche for women? They don't come here because, well, I don't know, they have enjoyed a fictionnal universe and are wanting to explore it more?
And I don't think that fandom was built by women, it was built by individual.
"(They aren't welcome to be assholes, of course, and when men are assholes it won't be read as an individual being an asshole but part of a pattern of male behavior--because the pattern, the historical context is there and cannot be denied.)"
You see, I tend to treat the men who act like assholes in the exact same way that women who act like assholes.
Men telling to me that women are opressing them in fandom or that women are not in their place in fandom bother me as well.
"It doesn't mean that men like me aren't welcome. It means that in a sexist world, where men and women aren't equal and it's disingenious to say everyone should be treated as if they are and then not go on to address the sexism systemic to the structure, women need and deserve a Room of Their Own so to speak, and historically for some time fandom has provided them with that space."
Yes, but fandom is not limited to that and should not be limited to that. woemn tha
"And when they see a bunch of men want to co-opt their community for the sake of patriarchy and capitalism, they rightly get upset and, yeah, I think gender's a real issue."
Why not? But I tend myself to think that capitalism is the real issue here, fanlib didn't seemed motivated by a patriarchal logic for me but by a logic of profits.
That's why I don't get it when people are picturing that like a fight between patriarchy and women.