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life_wo_fanlibAh, man. So, this post of jdsampson's was linked in the comments of scarah's latest post. Although it is way too easy to point out the flaws in her arguments-- kind of like kickboxing a hamster-- I am compelled to take a couple of shots. (Warning: this got very, very, very lengthy.)
eta 1: OK, so I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post to replace all occurrences "Naomi" with "jdsampson," but some of the comments may still say "Naomi." Sorry about this.
eta 2: It appears that jdsampson has deleted the post I responded to. It was originally the very first post in the thread. The thread is still there, but her post has disappeared. However, I did quote 90% of it in my own post, so simply by reading the statements in italics, you can piece it together yourself.
I have inserted my comments in between jdsampson's statements.
In general, fandom seems to have a low tolerance for beginners. Which is odd if you think about it because we were all beginners at one time.
jdsampson is wrong. Fandom doesn't have a low tolerance for newbies; it has a low tolerance for careless, lazy writers. Admittedly, confusing the two groups is often an easy mistake to make, since newbies are more likely to make more classic beginner mistakes. But the fact is, not all newbies *are* lazy writers-- and not every lazy writer in fandom is a newbie.
jdsampson is conflating the two groups into one-- lazy/careless newbie writers-- and acting like fandom has a low tolerance for these authors' stories just because they're *newbies*. The fact is, there's no cabal and it ain't personal. What fandom actually has is a low tolerance for *lazy writing*.
(And actually? In my experience, if you are an okay writer, and you show up somewhere new and your first story shows promise, you will often get more love and fb than you otherwise would have, simply *because* you're new. People aren't stupid. They don't want to drive potentially good or even *decent* writers out of their fandom. Often, people will make an effort to leave a positive comment especially in order to encourage a talented newbie to *stay* in their fandom and write more. Thinking back, some of the most popular stories I've ever written have been "first" stories, and I think that the "encouragement" factor has a lot to do with that.)
I give props to ANYONE who puts their thoughts on paper and shares it with the world.
Ah, the old shell game. I have to hand it to jdsampson-- her post here is *such* a great example of an incredibly common logical fallacy that always seems to come up in discussions of criticism (whether the discussion is about criticism of fanfic or original fic.) Go back to her original post (eta: now deleted, it appears?) and watch how often-- and how subtly-- jdsampson switches back and forth between talking about STORIES and talking about PEOPLE.
The thing is, looking at her statement that I just quoted there? I agree with her, one hundred percent. I think it's awesome that fandom *creates writers*-- whether they're 14 or 45, I love that fandom takes people who have never written before, and infuses them with such energy that they just have to create something. I *love* that fandom gives people a chance to experiment and play and have fun with *making art*, regardless of quality.
However.
There's a subtle, yet vital difference between praising a *person* and praising a *story*.
I will give a *person* props for doing something she's never done before, like writing a story and sharing it. Way to go, newbie writer! I remember how scary it is to do that. Way to be brave!
But the thing is? If you expect me (or anyone else) to actually give your STORY props-- then that story has to deserve it. The story has to be GOOD. Or at least not terrible. And that means more than just having a thought, putting it on paper and sharing it. Making something good that deserves praise *all on its own*-- well, that takes some effort. And if it's completely obvious that there has been no effort at all to actually try to make a story worth *reading*, well. Then no matter what jdsampson says, that story does not deserve "props."
In effect, what jdsampson does here is to try to erase the distinction between an author and her work-- this will come up again later as well.
Fandom driven or original - fiction is a very personal thing and so offering up our work is like offering up a piece of ourselves that might only otherwise be revealed in therapy!
Yeah, hm. You know what therapy is? Therapy is when you PAY people to listen to you ramble. If I have to listen to your therapeutic rambling, I had better be getting paid for it.
The other thing about therapy is that it's not one-way communication. I mean, think about it. In *real* therapy, when you spill out your troubles, the therapist doesn't tell you that everything you say and do is absolutely wonderful and perfect, does she? That wouldn't be helpful at all. The whole point of a therapist, as far as I know, is to help you solve problems and/or improve something you're having issues with. Sometimes this involves closely examining aspects of your life that are unproductive, or even self-sabotaging. If you thought that you were absolutely perfect in every way, and didn't need improvement or help at all, then you wouldn't go to a therapist.
Therapy is *all about* the idea that talking about problems, examining them, understanding them, and trying to *do better* in the future is a worthwhile and *achievable* goal.
Apply this metaphor to writing and the implication should be obvious.
Going back to jdsampson's statement, I think it's also worthwhile to examine her assertation that "fiction is a very personal thing."
The thing is, it's not. Writing fiction, like any other form of art, is a means of *communication* between two or more people. If your story is full of errors and typos and plot holes, so that the reader has to struggle to understand it, then you've failed at being an effective communicator, and you've failed at being a good artist. (Of course, some artists do produce works that are *deliberately* obscure or hard to understand, in order to *force* the audience to struggle and think and work things out for themselves. But if you are not actually *trying* to produce a sense of confusion-- then no, sorry, you've still failed in your attempt to create good art.)
If you really want your writing to be a "personal thing," then keep a diary and don't show it to anyone. But if you want to write fiction and share it with others-- if you want to create fiction that can be fully appreciated by your audience-- then you have to *do the work* to make sure that it effectively communicates the ideas and emotions that you want to get across.
And yet time and time again I see writers slamming other writers to their face or behind their backs. Why? Is it fear of being caught hanging with the "no so cool kids?" He who laughs first laughs hardest? What?
And here's the shell game again. First we were talking about people-- and then stories-- and now we're back to people again. Suddenly, criticism of *fiction* has become slamming *writers*. When all else fails, remember: treat criticism of your work as if it's a personal attack. If you act as if the author and the story are the same thing, then it's easy to get people to agree with you that criticism is wrong. After all, nobody supports personal attacks! That's just flaming, and flaming is bad.
However, the fact is, criticising a piece of fiction is *not the same thing* as insulting a real person.
If I say "This author's story is full of typos, the plot depended entirely on unlikely coincidences, and the hero was whiny and unsympathetic," then I am criticising a story. If I say "You're dumb and ugly and you stink," *then* I am slamming a person.
Once a piece of fiction has been publically posted, people are going to react to it. If you are not prepared to deal with a full range of reactions-- postive, negative, expected or unexpected-- then you simply should not post fiction in public. Furthermore, if you cannot separate criticism of your fiction from criticism of you as a person, then you should not post fiction in public.
But again: criticising a story? Not the same as insulting a person.
Sure it breaks tons of the fanfiction rules but I can feel the effort.
And now that jdsampson has established that all criticism = flaming, note how quickly she switches us back to talking about *stories*, not *people*.
I can feel her joy in the story and that, to me, is worth way more than twenty pages of properly formatted text with no soul.
This is a logical fallacy known as the "false dilemma," and it's another *classic* anti-criticism argument. jdsampson is describing two types of fanfic here-- one type that may be full of errors, but can still be appreciated because the author wrote it with a soul full of joy, and one that is properly formatted and yet soulless.
Now, it's true that these two types of fanfic probably do exist. However, jdsampson's implication is that these are the ONLY two types of fanfiction that exist. There is only: (1) "joyous, soulful" stories that do not emphasise technical correctness, and (2) stories that are dead and soulless and boring, that *do* emphasise technical correctness.
The "false dilemma" is often also called the "law of the excluded middle," because it ignores that there can be a middle ground in between two stated options. jdsampson is purposely ignoring a huge middle ground here. The type of fanfiction she's ignoring is probably the most common type of fanfiction that exists; a story that has soul, and yet has ALSO been spell-checked, because the writer cares deeply both about the "soul" of her story AND its technical presentation.
Now, we *also* have an example of a fallacy called "false cause" here. jdsampson is implying that boring yet technically correct stories are boring BECAUSE the authors care about technical excellence-- and that soulful yet sloppy stories are wonderful BECAUSE the author does not waste her time worrying about technical excellence.
In jdsampson's worldview, the act of running a spell-check would actually strip a story of all its joy and soul. It does not seem to occur to her that one could be a joyous, soulful writer who writes down her deep, personal fantasies-- and then checks her story over for obvious, glaring errors before posting. She's got a completely backwards view of writing, where the author who cares about being an effective communicator is the author who doesn't understand the "soul" of writing at all.
What if you were to find a poorly written story on the "featured" section of Fanlib. Would you think, geez, look at the junk they're promoting. Or wow, someone's slipped a screw.
Or would you think - hey, that's terrific. That newbie writer really deserves the encouragement and the additional eyes that the "featured" section brings. That's cool.
Well, personally? I'd think that maybe FanLib didn't quite understand the meaning of a "featured" section, or the purpose of having one. Everyplace else on the web that I've ever been, the "featured" or the "editor's choice" or the "x of the week" spot is reserved for *great* examples of whatever the site is about; it's not meant to spotlight newbies who don't understand the basic rules and guidelines of whatever craft it is they're practicing. Encouraging people, even if they're not incredible super-geniuses, is a valid and worthy goal! However, it's not what a "featured" section is for.
Now, if FanLib changed the title of its featured section to something like "New Writers To Encourage" instead of "Featured," then I doubt anybody would have a problem with it presenting stories that weren't absolutely excellent. I mean, I'd *still* like to think that in order to be worthy of being featured, a story could at least show that the author wasn't completely careless in how she wrote and presented it. Not having spelling errors in the summary would be one hint of that. But I do think most people would cut the stories in a "New Writers to Encourage" section a fair amount of slack.
However, if FanLib's featured stories are going to continue to be called "Featured" stories, then FanLib's site readers are probably going to continue to expect that section to feature stories that are *outstanding, excellent* examples of the content FanLib hosts. And if the "Featured" section instead features carelessly written, unedited stories, then that's going to have two effects.
First of all, it will have exactly the *reverse* effect that jdsampson thinks it will. If you "feature" stories that are full of errors, authors will *not* be encouraged to improve their work. Why should any author actually bother to spell-check or edit her work, if it turns out that any old thing dashed off in five minutes is good enough to be a "featured" story on the front page of the site? Why bother working hard if you can write something totally random, not even edit it, and get it "featured?"
The second effect of putting carelessly written stories in the "Featured" section will be this: FanLib readers and new visitors to the site will see those listed stories and assume that the mediocre, slipshod stories being "featured" are, in fact, the best that FanLib has to offer. They'll be unlikely to read further if they think that FanLib's *best stories*-- the stories that the site itself chooses to feature as examples of the fare it offers-- are carelessly written and basically half-assed.
The only potential positive effect of featuring crappy stories is as follows-- bad authors will be encouraged to post more slipshod, messy stories to FanLib in hopes of getting them featured. How is this a positive effect? Well, it's not positive for the readers, who are going to have to sort through even more junk in order to find the few gems that may exist on FanLib. But it *is* positive for FanLib's bottom line, which depends on the *number* of stories being posted-- as shown by their "post lots of stories, get an iPod" campaign. Once again, it seems clear that quality isn't an issue for FanLib. *Quantity* is. And that's why you'll probably continue to see crappy, careless stories featured in the "Featured" section.
eta 1: OK, so I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post to replace all occurrences "Naomi" with "jdsampson," but some of the comments may still say "Naomi." Sorry about this.
eta 2: It appears that jdsampson has deleted the post I responded to. It was originally the very first post in the thread. The thread is still there, but her post has disappeared. However, I did quote 90% of it in my own post, so simply by reading the statements in italics, you can piece it together yourself.
I have inserted my comments in between jdsampson's statements.
In general, fandom seems to have a low tolerance for beginners. Which is odd if you think about it because we were all beginners at one time.
jdsampson is wrong. Fandom doesn't have a low tolerance for newbies; it has a low tolerance for careless, lazy writers. Admittedly, confusing the two groups is often an easy mistake to make, since newbies are more likely to make more classic beginner mistakes. But the fact is, not all newbies *are* lazy writers-- and not every lazy writer in fandom is a newbie.
jdsampson is conflating the two groups into one-- lazy/careless newbie writers-- and acting like fandom has a low tolerance for these authors' stories just because they're *newbies*. The fact is, there's no cabal and it ain't personal. What fandom actually has is a low tolerance for *lazy writing*.
(And actually? In my experience, if you are an okay writer, and you show up somewhere new and your first story shows promise, you will often get more love and fb than you otherwise would have, simply *because* you're new. People aren't stupid. They don't want to drive potentially good or even *decent* writers out of their fandom. Often, people will make an effort to leave a positive comment especially in order to encourage a talented newbie to *stay* in their fandom and write more. Thinking back, some of the most popular stories I've ever written have been "first" stories, and I think that the "encouragement" factor has a lot to do with that.)
I give props to ANYONE who puts their thoughts on paper and shares it with the world.
Ah, the old shell game. I have to hand it to jdsampson-- her post here is *such* a great example of an incredibly common logical fallacy that always seems to come up in discussions of criticism (whether the discussion is about criticism of fanfic or original fic.) Go back to her original post (eta: now deleted, it appears?) and watch how often-- and how subtly-- jdsampson switches back and forth between talking about STORIES and talking about PEOPLE.
The thing is, looking at her statement that I just quoted there? I agree with her, one hundred percent. I think it's awesome that fandom *creates writers*-- whether they're 14 or 45, I love that fandom takes people who have never written before, and infuses them with such energy that they just have to create something. I *love* that fandom gives people a chance to experiment and play and have fun with *making art*, regardless of quality.
However.
There's a subtle, yet vital difference between praising a *person* and praising a *story*.
I will give a *person* props for doing something she's never done before, like writing a story and sharing it. Way to go, newbie writer! I remember how scary it is to do that. Way to be brave!
But the thing is? If you expect me (or anyone else) to actually give your STORY props-- then that story has to deserve it. The story has to be GOOD. Or at least not terrible. And that means more than just having a thought, putting it on paper and sharing it. Making something good that deserves praise *all on its own*-- well, that takes some effort. And if it's completely obvious that there has been no effort at all to actually try to make a story worth *reading*, well. Then no matter what jdsampson says, that story does not deserve "props."
In effect, what jdsampson does here is to try to erase the distinction between an author and her work-- this will come up again later as well.
Fandom driven or original - fiction is a very personal thing and so offering up our work is like offering up a piece of ourselves that might only otherwise be revealed in therapy!
Yeah, hm. You know what therapy is? Therapy is when you PAY people to listen to you ramble. If I have to listen to your therapeutic rambling, I had better be getting paid for it.
The other thing about therapy is that it's not one-way communication. I mean, think about it. In *real* therapy, when you spill out your troubles, the therapist doesn't tell you that everything you say and do is absolutely wonderful and perfect, does she? That wouldn't be helpful at all. The whole point of a therapist, as far as I know, is to help you solve problems and/or improve something you're having issues with. Sometimes this involves closely examining aspects of your life that are unproductive, or even self-sabotaging. If you thought that you were absolutely perfect in every way, and didn't need improvement or help at all, then you wouldn't go to a therapist.
Therapy is *all about* the idea that talking about problems, examining them, understanding them, and trying to *do better* in the future is a worthwhile and *achievable* goal.
Apply this metaphor to writing and the implication should be obvious.
Going back to jdsampson's statement, I think it's also worthwhile to examine her assertation that "fiction is a very personal thing."
The thing is, it's not. Writing fiction, like any other form of art, is a means of *communication* between two or more people. If your story is full of errors and typos and plot holes, so that the reader has to struggle to understand it, then you've failed at being an effective communicator, and you've failed at being a good artist. (Of course, some artists do produce works that are *deliberately* obscure or hard to understand, in order to *force* the audience to struggle and think and work things out for themselves. But if you are not actually *trying* to produce a sense of confusion-- then no, sorry, you've still failed in your attempt to create good art.)
If you really want your writing to be a "personal thing," then keep a diary and don't show it to anyone. But if you want to write fiction and share it with others-- if you want to create fiction that can be fully appreciated by your audience-- then you have to *do the work* to make sure that it effectively communicates the ideas and emotions that you want to get across.
And yet time and time again I see writers slamming other writers to their face or behind their backs. Why? Is it fear of being caught hanging with the "no so cool kids?" He who laughs first laughs hardest? What?
And here's the shell game again. First we were talking about people-- and then stories-- and now we're back to people again. Suddenly, criticism of *fiction* has become slamming *writers*. When all else fails, remember: treat criticism of your work as if it's a personal attack. If you act as if the author and the story are the same thing, then it's easy to get people to agree with you that criticism is wrong. After all, nobody supports personal attacks! That's just flaming, and flaming is bad.
However, the fact is, criticising a piece of fiction is *not the same thing* as insulting a real person.
If I say "This author's story is full of typos, the plot depended entirely on unlikely coincidences, and the hero was whiny and unsympathetic," then I am criticising a story. If I say "You're dumb and ugly and you stink," *then* I am slamming a person.
Once a piece of fiction has been publically posted, people are going to react to it. If you are not prepared to deal with a full range of reactions-- postive, negative, expected or unexpected-- then you simply should not post fiction in public. Furthermore, if you cannot separate criticism of your fiction from criticism of you as a person, then you should not post fiction in public.
But again: criticising a story? Not the same as insulting a person.
Sure it breaks tons of the fanfiction rules but I can feel the effort.
And now that jdsampson has established that all criticism = flaming, note how quickly she switches us back to talking about *stories*, not *people*.
I can feel her joy in the story and that, to me, is worth way more than twenty pages of properly formatted text with no soul.
This is a logical fallacy known as the "false dilemma," and it's another *classic* anti-criticism argument. jdsampson is describing two types of fanfic here-- one type that may be full of errors, but can still be appreciated because the author wrote it with a soul full of joy, and one that is properly formatted and yet soulless.
Now, it's true that these two types of fanfic probably do exist. However, jdsampson's implication is that these are the ONLY two types of fanfiction that exist. There is only: (1) "joyous, soulful" stories that do not emphasise technical correctness, and (2) stories that are dead and soulless and boring, that *do* emphasise technical correctness.
The "false dilemma" is often also called the "law of the excluded middle," because it ignores that there can be a middle ground in between two stated options. jdsampson is purposely ignoring a huge middle ground here. The type of fanfiction she's ignoring is probably the most common type of fanfiction that exists; a story that has soul, and yet has ALSO been spell-checked, because the writer cares deeply both about the "soul" of her story AND its technical presentation.
Now, we *also* have an example of a fallacy called "false cause" here. jdsampson is implying that boring yet technically correct stories are boring BECAUSE the authors care about technical excellence-- and that soulful yet sloppy stories are wonderful BECAUSE the author does not waste her time worrying about technical excellence.
In jdsampson's worldview, the act of running a spell-check would actually strip a story of all its joy and soul. It does not seem to occur to her that one could be a joyous, soulful writer who writes down her deep, personal fantasies-- and then checks her story over for obvious, glaring errors before posting. She's got a completely backwards view of writing, where the author who cares about being an effective communicator is the author who doesn't understand the "soul" of writing at all.
What if you were to find a poorly written story on the "featured" section of Fanlib. Would you think, geez, look at the junk they're promoting. Or wow, someone's slipped a screw.
Or would you think - hey, that's terrific. That newbie writer really deserves the encouragement and the additional eyes that the "featured" section brings. That's cool.
Well, personally? I'd think that maybe FanLib didn't quite understand the meaning of a "featured" section, or the purpose of having one. Everyplace else on the web that I've ever been, the "featured" or the "editor's choice" or the "x of the week" spot is reserved for *great* examples of whatever the site is about; it's not meant to spotlight newbies who don't understand the basic rules and guidelines of whatever craft it is they're practicing. Encouraging people, even if they're not incredible super-geniuses, is a valid and worthy goal! However, it's not what a "featured" section is for.
Now, if FanLib changed the title of its featured section to something like "New Writers To Encourage" instead of "Featured," then I doubt anybody would have a problem with it presenting stories that weren't absolutely excellent. I mean, I'd *still* like to think that in order to be worthy of being featured, a story could at least show that the author wasn't completely careless in how she wrote and presented it. Not having spelling errors in the summary would be one hint of that. But I do think most people would cut the stories in a "New Writers to Encourage" section a fair amount of slack.
However, if FanLib's featured stories are going to continue to be called "Featured" stories, then FanLib's site readers are probably going to continue to expect that section to feature stories that are *outstanding, excellent* examples of the content FanLib hosts. And if the "Featured" section instead features carelessly written, unedited stories, then that's going to have two effects.
First of all, it will have exactly the *reverse* effect that jdsampson thinks it will. If you "feature" stories that are full of errors, authors will *not* be encouraged to improve their work. Why should any author actually bother to spell-check or edit her work, if it turns out that any old thing dashed off in five minutes is good enough to be a "featured" story on the front page of the site? Why bother working hard if you can write something totally random, not even edit it, and get it "featured?"
The second effect of putting carelessly written stories in the "Featured" section will be this: FanLib readers and new visitors to the site will see those listed stories and assume that the mediocre, slipshod stories being "featured" are, in fact, the best that FanLib has to offer. They'll be unlikely to read further if they think that FanLib's *best stories*-- the stories that the site itself chooses to feature as examples of the fare it offers-- are carelessly written and basically half-assed.
The only potential positive effect of featuring crappy stories is as follows-- bad authors will be encouraged to post more slipshod, messy stories to FanLib in hopes of getting them featured. How is this a positive effect? Well, it's not positive for the readers, who are going to have to sort through even more junk in order to find the few gems that may exist on FanLib. But it *is* positive for FanLib's bottom line, which depends on the *number* of stories being posted-- as shown by their "post lots of stories, get an iPod" campaign. Once again, it seems clear that quality isn't an issue for FanLib. *Quantity* is. And that's why you'll probably continue to see crappy, careless stories featured in the "Featured" section.
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no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 03:40 am (UTC)Your point that she continually conflates the writer with her story is a very good one. It's interesting that making that error over and over only makes Naomi look more and more like someone who really doesn't get fandom. Thanks for the freshman logic refresher and for an interesting read!
no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 04:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 04:47 am (UTC)[Comment, ironically, reposted for typo]
It does them no good to be patted on the head and told it's ok and we love them anyway. The whole attitude over there is condescending.
Yeah, that aspect was discussed a bit in the comments of Scarah's post. If I ever accidentally posted a story with a misspelling in the summary-- dear GOD. I would want someone to tell me, and *right away*, so that I could fix it. I wouldn't want a story with a glaring error right there in the summary to be FEATURED on the front page of wherever it was archived. How is that encouraging? That's just embarrassing.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 04:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 06:47 am (UTC)Well, there are plenty of people *in fandom* who think that stories shouldn't be criticised. But the thing is, if you don't like fanfic criticism, you don't really have to leave fandom entirely in order to avoid it.
Naomi thinks you do, though. She has made a couple of different comments about how non-FanLib-fandom is all run by BNFs who hate newbies (or whatever.) Apparently every single fandom on LJ, every comm and recs journal, is run by fans who deliberately won't give newbies a chance. Therefore, FanLib is the only good alternative, because apparently, only an archive run by "outsiders" is going to be "fair."
And now I guess we know what fair means-- basically, on FanLib, all stories are equally worthy of praise, regardless of actual quality, and even a "poorly written" story with spelling and grammar errors in the title or summary can be featured on the front page, because Naomi can "feel" that the author put effort into it. Hoo boy.
Thanks for this comment!
no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 09:30 am (UTC)I have edited my post to include this disclaimer: I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post to replace all occurrences "Naomi" with "jdsampson," but some of the comments may still say "Naomi." Sorry about this.
The thing is, it actually makes it kind of more mindboggling that jdsampson wrote this and not Naomi-- Naomi is only 25, but according to jdsampson, *she's* been in fandom since the days of Bonanza and Wild Wild West. So, yeah.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 01:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-26 03:56 am (UTC)And yet nobody really knows who she is. Which indicates (a) that she's possibly not all that good a ficwriter; and (b) that she's not that good at the social element of fandom. Because I know people who've been around that long, too, and they tend to be good writers or good people to have around, or both.
I smell the BNF Cabal pinata, again. Sure, kids, keep swinging at that instead of, you know, actually writing good stories. By all means.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 03:54 am (UTC)Her initial premise is ridiculous because she offers no substantive evidence to prove it, but instead launches into her "solution".
I agree with you completely. Fandom rewards - no punishes - new writers who approach their fan groups respectfully, with solidly-written work or with the desire to improve their craft from feedback.
The real reason she even posted this in the first place was to inject life into their anemic message board. I've not spent too much time there, but it seems as if many of the threads are begun by the moderators, not the member.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 09:45 am (UTC)Her initial premise is ridiculous because she offers no substantive evidence to prove it, but instead launches into her "solution".
ETA, sorry. I have edited my post to include this disclaimer: I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post.
Anyway.
*nodding* It's one thing to have your own opinions about fandom, but it's entirely another thing to act like your personal experiences are completely universal. I mean, even in my post I make a lot of generalizations about "fandom," but I do know that every fandom is different and for every generalization, there's probably an exception, and that probably no one has had the *exact* same experiences that I have had.
But, the more jdsampson talks about fandom, the more I personally am starting to believe that she probably had a couple of bad experiences with people criticising or mocking her stories, and she has generalized this to believe that EVERYONE in ALL fandoms is like that. And therefore she must retreat to FanLib in order to get away from "Fandom," which is mean.
Which is so silly, seriously. If "Fandom" really does hate newbies so much, then where does fandom COME from? Does she think that fandom is all made up of original K/S slashers from 1966, desperately trying to stomp down new writers like weeds? "No! Go away! You're NEW!"
The real reason she even posted this in the first place was to inject life into their anemic message board. I've not spent too much time there, but it seems as if many of the threads are begun by the moderators, not the member.
That's a bit sad. I wonder how many FanLib members just posted tons of stories at once during the "upload lots of stories, win prizes" promotional period, and then just drifted off, never to look back.
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Date: 2007-06-25 03:41 pm (UTC)And yes, her tone about fandom is broad-brushed and irritating, and I never like the angle that everyone's a victim and they'd be safe if only they
joined FLenter ridiculous reasoning here.She's only looking for reasons to reiterate the justifications about why FL is better than everywhere else.
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Date: 2007-06-25 05:20 am (UTC)But to encourage -- nay, feature -- poorly written stories is a real disservice to writers and readers alike. Writers learn through practice, critique, and a good beta. And if you're told that your story has too many grammatical problems or the descriptions could be more developed or whatever, it doesn't mean you're disliked -- on the contrary, it means that you might have potential to produce something really good. It's not technical elegance vs. heart and soul, as you point out. The dichotomy is really counterproductive.
I think you're dead right about quantity being much more important to FL than quality. And if you can get by with less effort, just spewing out whatever's hidden in the dark recesses of your psyche without even a spellcheck, then why bother to improve?
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:31 am (UTC)I have edited my post to include this disclaimer: I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post.
And if you're told that your story has too many grammatical problems or the descriptions could be more developed or whatever, it doesn't mean you're disliked -- on the contrary, it means that you might have potential to produce something really good. It's not technical elegance vs. heart and soul, as you point out. The dichotomy is really counterproductive.
*nodding* Really, I *only* beta for my friends anymore, because it's hard work. It can be *grueling!* But I want to do it, even when it's hard work for both of us, because I know it's a NICE thing to do for someone, not a mean thing to do TO someone. And I know it makes stories better, not worse.
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Date: 2007-06-25 01:41 pm (UTC)Ah, okay. I didn't click on the initial post (I try to avoid clicking FanLib links, that site makes my brain hurt). But my question is the same -- whomever the author is, she must exist in a totally different different fandom world than I've ever seen.
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Date: 2007-06-25 06:27 am (UTC)As a very new fanfic author, I can only say that Naomi is dead wrong. I have gotton so much support that I have written over sixty thousand words in a little over two months. I take a great deal of care with my work and I take great pride in it.
If that site goes about promoting and encouraging lazy work, then how are other new authors supposed to learn how to write? I depend on my readers to tell me when I am wrong. Writing isn't about getting a constant ego boost, it is about learning and refining your craft. I don't want to be given empty praises, I want to learn how I can do better.
My readers question me and challenge me and make me think. That is invaluable...by encouraging mindless back patting, Naomi is devaluing the genuine help and support that many writers want.
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:39 am (UTC)I have edited my post to include this disclaimer: I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post.
(Hoo boy, talk about careless.)
Anyway. Thank you for commenting, I appreciate your perspective. :D
If that site goes about promoting and encouraging lazy work, then how are other new authors supposed to learn how to write?
*nods* And if a fandom suppresses any form of criticism because it's "slamming writers," then again, how are people supposed to learn what works and what doesn't? If it's rude to point out "this story was hard to read because it wasn't spell-checked," then how is a person supposed to realize that it helps to spell-check? And so on.
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Date: 2007-06-25 08:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 09:16 am (UTC)Yeah, I have to say I would be *extremely* disappointed if I had posted my stories at FanLib, and then realized that the mods were choosing "Featured Stories" that even THEY admitted were "poorly written."
Actually, as Naomi says later in the thread: "I try to be objective, looking at the plot, construction, etc. But as I don't know every fandom I might pick a story that is well written but has canon flaws without knowing it. Fans of the genre could hate it for that reason."
First of all, that's not what the word "genre" means. Second, I don't see how a mod can pick a "Featured" story in a certain fandom if she doesn't *know* the fandom. Fanfiction just doesn't work like that. And if I were a FanLib author, I'd be disgruntled by that, too.
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 09:33 am (UTC)I have edited my post to include this disclaimer: I was typing on VERY low blood sugar this afternoon & attributed jdsampson's post to Naomi. Naomi didn't write it; jdsampson did. I can't even blame anyone else, because the comment on scarah's post clearly cites jdsampson as the author, and I must have just read some other comment along the way and gotten jdsampson and Naomi mixed up. I have edited the post.
Anyway, yeah. jdsampson claims to have been in fandom for-- longer than Naomi's even been alive, I think. So yeah, she really should know better than to be taking on the job of picking "featured stories" in a fandom she doesn't even know.
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 09:38 am (UTC)Dang! Yes! FanLib needs loads of new authors that will post a "chappie" every day so FanLib will look "busy" to its investors. Fanfiction authors, not casual web site visitors, are FanLib's most important commodity. The authors come back over and over, are exposed to the most advertising, and are most likely to buy crap.
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:43 am (UTC)FanLib: Like fandom, but without standards.
The sad part is, that's probably what makes it appealing to a certain percent of its users.
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Date: 2007-06-25 10:17 am (UTC)Now she has deleted the original post?
What the hell?
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Date: 2007-06-25 10:30 am (UTC)Seriously. At this point, don't they REALIZE we're watching them and what they say? Going around and trying to delete something after you've already said it and been *extensively quoted* is so clown shoes.
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Date: 2007-06-26 12:33 am (UTC)If so, it is odd, because the people that know her report she seemed to be enjoying herself, and received decent feedback on her stories.
Was decent feedback not enough for her? Did she want more lovin'? Did a bad experience happen to one of her online friends?
Whatever caused it, her views have affected FanLib's approach, I believe, and that is unfortunate.
It entertains me she is FanLib's first [and paid] BNF. I miss her sig line "This is why I get the extra cookie." It was so very BNF. :D
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Date: 2007-06-25 01:20 pm (UTC)Writing is no different. You start out young, in grade school, when you start reading books and discovering themes, you learn grammar and spelling and you start to use it, and then you realize that you can put this together and make your own book. You take a summer class dealing with the Hero's Journey, and then you think, wow, I can make a story that goes through the Hero's Journey. You learn, you apply, you present, repeat. If you take one out, the whole thing changes.
... What time zone are you people in?
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:17 pm (UTC)*G* I'm in the insomniac time zone. Don't know about everyone else.
Thank you for your comments! :D
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Date: 2007-06-25 02:39 pm (UTC)Also, it is a newbie mistake. Who hasn't received an angry, less-PC variant of "HOW DARE YOU TO SAY MY WORK IS LESS THAN PERFECT, YOU HATER?" when offering actual, well-thought concrit?
My guess is that they trying to appeal that mass of fragile snowflakes, to have them believe their work is going to be safe from "evil meanies" if hosted there.
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Date: 2007-06-25 09:11 pm (UTC)My guess is that they trying to appeal that mass of fragile snowflakes, to have them believe their work is going to be safe from "evil meanies" if hosted there.
It's really weird to me that jdsampson *does* keep emphasizing that part of it. I mean, at this point, it really seems like it's the main reason that she's such a big FanLib supporter. Not because of the iPods or the badges or the interface or the access-to-TPTB or any of the other "benefits" that FanLib *officially* promotes-- but just because "fandom" is a mean place.
I mean, it's like me starting up a Doctor Who community and saying "You guys should join my comm, because everyone in Grey's Anatomy fandom is a bitch!"
Even if that's true, it's not a reason why people should join MY comm. I haven't said anything actually positive about *my* comm or my fandom or why it's awesome and people should join it. I mean, it seems like it would be so much easier to promote a comm by saying, "Join my comm, because I'm giving away prizes, and can get you access to TPTB, and will make you fancy badges for your stories!" Right?
Every time jdsampson makes some wide-ranging slam against fandom, and says it's her reason for preferring FanLib, it really makes me wonder why she chooses to continue promoting FanLib in this way. Saying "Fandom is bitchy, join FanLib" doesn't tell me anything about FanLib's *actual merits*, and if the biggest reason to join FanLib is that "fandom hates newbies," well, probably most people aren't going to consider that a valid reason.
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Date: 2007-06-26 01:13 am (UTC)"We don't really know anything about them, but they're mean, therefore we're good."
Not even my 5-years-old niece would buy that. Way to be mature. XD
"fandom" is a mean place.
If we're so mean, how come is that there are newcomers everyday?
Oh, I forgot, we didn't have a FanLib to provide us with an understanding, warm-welcoming alternative. */sarcasm*
"Join my comm, because I'm giving away prizes, and can get you access to TPTB, and will make you fancy badges for your stories!" Right?
That's how they tried to lure me (http://fujurpreux.livejournal.com/232677.html) at first, promising a private screening for the winners of a contest. At the time, I didn't know about what they were up to, but the fact that they asked for my ff.net password to import my fics scared me away.
Either way, I think they're now resorting to hysterics because they tried "being nice" already and, as we know, since they coupled it with a total failure in marketing research, it didn't
...How did they get all that money again?
Sorry, the comment wasn't complete when I hit post.
Date: 2007-06-26 01:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-25 07:31 pm (UTC)In general, fandom seems to have a low tolerance for beginners. Which is odd if you think about it because we were all beginners at one time.
No, fandom has a low tolerance for incompetence... and we were not all incompentent at one time. At least, not in public. Not an expected praise for it.
Jdsampson seems to think fanfic is "art," and that, like a child's scribbled "it's a horsie, mommy!", it should all be praised and encouraged regardless of talent or skill. Those of us who think writing is a craft aren't interested in praising stories that lack eighth-grade writing skills. (I have a sixth-grader at home. Fanfic that writes at her level makes me wince and shudder.)
Encouraging newbies? Sure; laudable concept. We should encourage them to develop their skills. Tell them that they've picked a lovely plot idea, or an interesting pairing, or a unique AU, or whatever. Or tell them they're hitting ideas so well-known and loved they're part of fanon... don't need to say "damn, this is a cliché," if it's one that people enjoy if it's written well.
Praising incompetence? No. If the newbie in question is not a "snowflake" type, and doesn't collapse under criticism, it's easy to gently point out areas for potential improvement without saying "oh this was great!" when it wasn't.
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Date: 2007-06-25 08:59 pm (UTC)Jdsampson seems to think fanfic is "art," and that, like a child's scribbled "it's a horsie, mommy!", it should all be praised and encouraged regardless of talent or skill.
Yes, pretty much exactly. When a child says "I drew you a picture, here it is," then the important thing is to praise it, because they had a good motivation for doing it-- "You drew me a picture, that was so nice of you! It's so pretty!" and so on. I would be incredibly insulted if someone looked at something I drew and cooed at me like I was a five-year-old. "You drew a PICTURE! Good girl!"
Personally, I think writing is an "art," including fanfic, but of course it depends on what you mean by "art." I think in jdsampson's view, the art of writing is something "personal" and as long as the writer is happy with it, it's good art. In my POV, the art of writing is *communication,* and if the story doesn't communicate effectively, then it's not good art.
Encouraging newbies? Sure; laudable concept. We should encourage them to develop their skills.
Well said.
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Date: 2007-06-25 11:41 pm (UTC)Now jdsampson is all out in support of poor delicate newbies who've had their feewings hurt by the BNF meanies in fandom.
They really oughta make up their damn minds (rumoured).
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Date: 2007-06-26 09:38 pm (UTC)A couple points:
1. I wonder if FanLib has set up their featured story to be chosen randomly, perhaps even automated it. I can't imagine anyone advertising their site with misspelled content.
2. My experience with the fandom arc is that fandom is gentle with new writers, then gushy if the new writers produce a lot and become popular, then more critical as they become established writers.
Icarus
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Date: 2007-06-27 01:51 am (UTC)Instead of deciding that her community wasn't as shiny as she thought it was, she has decided instead to dismiss the critisms of those who disagree with her.
I am not saying that BNFs exist, and that some of them aren't assholes, but in general I've always found that the really powerful people in fandom don't consider themselves BNFs and are embarrassed when others recognize them as such.
But than again, those damn Harry Potter Plagiarists have made being a BNF very much not a good thing ;)
no subject
Date: 2007-06-27 02:51 am (UTC)Prescription for a marketing writer:
- one word processor
- 14 cans of Coke or Pepsi
- a bag of M&Ms
- a continuous loop of 80s bubblegum pop to set the mood
- a healthy dose of irony, but hold the sarcasm
Give me real journalism any day of the week.
Icarus